Changes in the Ginans

Discussion on ginan meanings, history etc..
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star_munir
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Post by star_munir »

@Nuseri...Zahir and batin both are important. Remember batin can not exist without Zahir. We believe in Imam that is Zahir (Present) with us Physically. We perform Zahiri practices...What is jura, chaanta, dua (though they have deep esoteric meanings) but they are zahir....So talking about batin is good but you can altogether delete Zahir...
And always remember if you change Zahir so batin will be changed. Manipulating words can result in entire different meanings. Words are really powerful
Last edited by star_munir on Fri Dec 27, 2013 12:39 pm, edited 1 time in total.
star_munir
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Post by star_munir »

Dear Admin,
I would be grateful if you answer these questions. As you mentioned that Ismailia Association of Canada was strongly against editing of Ginans, do they still hold the same view point at current or not? As per your understanding and opinion why most of the ITREB, following footsteps of Pakistan and India allowed editing of Ginans?
Admin
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Post by Admin »

What can I tell. Nowadays people are also editing Farmans and saying that Hazar Imam thinks in French and speaks in English and therefore they have to edit. What we hear directly from Hazar Imam is changed to say something different and send back to us re-interpreted by people who feel they know a better English.

In front of Jamat, they call the Imam respectfully as "Bapa" but when in front of the Imam, they contradict him hin the most revolting maner and between themselves they call him the "talio". Hazar Imam watch all this. he is just too Raheman and too Rahim. He forgives everyone. He knows these people will fall by themselves as rotten apples.

Those who do not have respect for the Hujat ul-Imam change the Ginans and those who do not have respect for Hazar Imam change His Farmans. The Jamat does not react and therefore more changes in both Ginans and Farmans. And therefore the Jamat is the loser at the end. That is called Divine Justice.

Hazar Imam says when Farmans have been changed, the Dai' have been hurt. Imam does not say the Jamat has been hurt. The Jamat does not care.
star_munir
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Post by star_munir »

It is difficult to understand how is it possible that leaders are afraid from jamat but not from Imam. Secondly, Imam can terminate any leader if He wish. Afterall Imam is the final and supreme authority. It is Imam who appoints leaders and not leaders who appoint Imam. Therefore, they can not control any thing as they wish in presence of Hazir and Moujood Imam. Leaders often justify by quoting words of Imam that He is well aware of what institutions are doing and they further clarify that from time to time they get guidance from Imam. You have mentioned that jamat is loser as it is accepting whatever leaders are saying. But if incase all leaders are wrong then Imam could send his guidance directly to jamat instead of giving it to leaders. For example, if Imam says in Jamat do NOT edit the Ginans do you think any leader or jamati member can dare to go against it. When Arabic dua was introduced, many leaders and jamati members were not happy. But because of farman of Imam, jamat obeyed it and they stopped saying Asal Dua composed by Pir Sadardin. Again leaders are appointed by Imam and He can terminate them also.
agakhani
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Post by agakhani »

What can I tell. Nowadays people are also editing Farmans and saying that Hazar Imam thinks in French and speaks in English and therefore they have to edit. What we hear directly from Hazar Imam is changed to say something different and send back to us re-interpreted by people who feel they know a better English.
Very interesting information for me Admin, be honest with you I was not aware about this changing !!!
What will be next in changing movements? 1st it was ginans/granths and second now a days in Farmans of MHI what will be third changing movements?
Therefore, they can not control any thing as they wish in presence of Hazir and Moujood Imam.
They (leaders) will find another way to make Jamat unaware of Imam's farmans!I think we can not blame each and every leaders who made changes or hiding the real farmans of hazar Imam, in pat there were some honest khidmatgar who used to pass whatever Imam convey to his jamats, they didn't makes any changes at all! period. so I personally believes that there may be some honest jamati leaders who may not like changes in Ginans and Farmans.
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Post by Admin »

agakhani wrote: Very interesting information for me Admin, be honest with you I was not aware about this changing !!!
For example 1994 London, UK where Hazar Imam made 2 general farmans (Didar and Darbar) and there were more than 100 changes when those 2 farmans were released to the Jamat. I myself compared the tape with the "official" transcript and was horrified.

Then again, this happens all the time. You may have heard in G.J. Imam said in London that he tells leaders but he is not sure the leaders tell the Jamat. The whole sentence was removed in the released version. In October 2000 Karachi Farman, the whole paragraph on 72 sects of Islam was removed from the Farman and replaced with some reference to pluralism. etc.. So when people do not respect even the Farmans, how will they respect the Ginans?
nuseri
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Post by nuseri »

Ya Ali Madad:
As i said earlier that we are all Haqiqati members of the forum are Nuseri.
Nuseri was a clan/tribe and not an individual person.

In those time Asabs(leaders) around H.Ali branded Nuseri of being a stubborn n disobedient Tariqati for his conviction of H.Ali and his utterance.
Nevetheless He proved his Haqiqat n was praised n endorsed by many Imams.

So let leaders do their job.ALI knows everything.

We should not try to micro monitor the words of MHI.

For example if any eminent uses the word 'Shariat'. Somebody may purposely mis interpret it

Then in country with those primitive laws can thru their court
of law(flaw) can send summons to that person to appear in the court of law in their country and even harass n arrest that person upon arrival or later.
They can create legal nightmare for non issues.

Official Ex Parte Death sentence are issued in many Shariati countries
on a author called Salman Rudhsie ( despite being not a citizen of that country) for publishing a particular novel.

Asabo ki Ali ki Tariqat per chord do.

Hume to Ali ki Haqiqat ki khush nasabi hai.

GILA GIBAT BANDH KARO
AB TO SIRF ALI ALI KARO
star_munir
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Post by star_munir »

It is mentioned in Ginan that people will discard traditions:
“The right Guru’s Farman will not be heeded and everyone will do as they please including not giving dasond and discarding their religious traditions.” (Moman Chetamni by Syed Imam Shah, Paath 53)
star_munir
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Post by star_munir »

It appears that there is gap in the information that we have. Just like earlier there was difference in Sajdahs in Pak and Africa. Later the matter was resolved and now there is similar sajdah every where.
Admin shared that with regards to changes in Ginans, Ismailia association for Canada highly opposed it and admin will share report of it. However, Ismailia association of Pak did not agree with that of Canada. The question that now comes in my mind is was there any verdict given by Imam on this issue after the report sent by Ismaili Association for Canada. Is there any documentation of it available?
star_munir
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Post by star_munir »

nuseri wrote:Ya Ali Madad:
As i said earlier that we are all Haqiqati members of the forum are Nuseri.
Nuseri was a clan/tribe and not an individual person.

In those time Asabs(leaders) around H.Ali branded Nuseri of being a stubborn n disobedient Tariqati for his conviction of H.Ali and his utterance.
Nevetheless He proved his Haqiqat n was praised n endorsed by many Imams.

So let leaders do their job.ALI knows everything.

We should not try to micro monitor the words of MHI.


For example if any eminent uses the word 'Shariat'. Somebody may purposely mis interpret it

Then in country with those primitive laws can thru their court
of law(flaw) can send summons to that person to appear in the court of law in their country and even harass n arrest that person upon arrival or later.
They can create legal nightmare for non issues.

Official Ex Parte Death sentence are issued in many Shariati countries
on a author called Salman Rudhsie ( despite being not a citizen of that country) for publishing a particular novel.

Asabo ki Ali ki Tariqat per chord do.

Hume to Ali ki Haqiqat ki khush nasabi hai.

GILA GIBAT BANDH KARO
AB TO SIRF ALI ALI KARO
Its true that Nuseri is a clan..although the one referred by Imam was the person. It would be wrong to categorized the clan of Nuseri as being haqiqati. It is important to understand the difference between nuseri clan and Ismailis..In past there have been different conflicts between Syrian Ismailis and Nuseris.
nuseri
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Post by nuseri »

Ya Ali madad:

I am aware of that.

What I meant here was that every Haqiqati must identify/feel or inspire to be like Nuseri.

During the time of H.Ali the clan which lived in those time had absolute FAITH in Ali.

The clan word was used to 'feel good' as few of the readers have assumed

that I have taken the sole franchise of that name.

This was inspire that there were many Nuseris present in the time of H.Ali.
If I were to say you are like 'Nuseri.'

Does that make my statement null n void because there cant be two or more Nuseris.

Some time too much academics tries to undermine the essence at Zahiri level.
Possessing a Data and Imaan can two different things many a times.
star_munir
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Post by star_munir »

According to Ali Asani, the team of Lalji Devraj had to burry 3500 manuscripts of Ginans, which they had used as the bases for their edition. According to Ali Asani, about 300 Ginans were not included in the official corpus because the contents were inappropriate for the direction in which Khoja Ismaili identity was evolving.

Any comments or view points on it???
Admin
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Post by Admin »

He is basing his assumption from Ivanow who wrote that the 6 books of Ginans published by Mukhi Lalji Devraj were based on 3,500 manuscripts collected at that time. I am not sure where he is getting all his other funny ideas but I would certainly not trust blindly his scholarly capacity in the field of Ginans.

Most of that stock of manuscripts was put in a safe room in Mumbay for a long time but the manuscripts were mostly very old, eaten and decayed and were probably disposed off at some point in time as their content was safe with the publications in Khojki script.
star_munir
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Post by star_munir »

Thank you very much for the clarification.
nuseri
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Post by nuseri »

Ya Ali Madad.
I observed that changes were very healthy in Ginans.
I do wish some could happen more.
for example.
the qasida
Dum hume ALI ALI.
It just takes one high platform.
there is matching verse in one of the Ginans
'Sami ne japo Saas o Saas".

During those time word sami was need of the hour.If the word Sami
is changed to ALI.it would sound more enriching inspite of essence of both being the same.
As ginan are part of traditions being subject to minor modification by Imamat.
Why this Ginan was left out for modification.
"right dialing is very important"
and via code dailing can be slower at times.
Does this message reaches to concerned person at Tariqa board,who may be sly readers of the forum.
I am making a humble but true observation and not criticizing the Ginans.

Please give your observation in healthy spirit.
sujjawal
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Post by sujjawal »

YA ALI MADAD!
I have been recently converted to the Shia Imami Ismaili tariqa from sunniism and have adopted Pir nasir khusrau's tradition and while in my study of khoja tadition I have seen in many of the ginans books which are beieng published by ITREB pakistan that verses regarding the topic of das avtar are not mentioned in ginan texts.terms like vishnu and maheshwar are also ommitted while term of bhirma(brahama) is retained.I am in a big confusion that whether Mowla doesnot want us to put emphasis on the concept of das avtar or it is not applicable this day.can anybody please guide me in this respect.
agakhani
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Post by agakhani »

Congratulation brother to join a Shiratan Mustkim path, a true path to reach to Allah' Noor.
Regarding changing in ginanic texts you are absolutely right, changes are made not only in Pakistan but I have seen in India, canada and USA so, nobody can blame Pakistan only.
But be honest with you as a diehard ginanic fan I have studied and observed deeply about the changes and my own thinking is; the most changes have been made in Pakistan, even though our current MHI never told us to changes any ginans, delete or ban any ginan.
now the question arise? whom to blame?
Admin
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Post by Admin »

Thanks God, we have our Dasmo Avatar, Hazrat Ali whose Noor is guiding us through eternity.
agakhani
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Post by agakhani »

As long as Ismaili imams farmans on ten incarnations is concern then let me tell you our 46,47 and 48th imams has accepted the 10 incarnations, same way imam Hakim also declared himself as tenth incarnation in his one khutba in presence of thousands peoples.
So none of Ismaili imams has denied it, matter of fact SMS once told the leaders that he was lord Krishna during Krishna era.
So, believing in ten incarnation is nothing wrong as long if you faith in it. However many Ismailis do not accept reincarnation theory because of their lake of knowledge or either they are heavily under inflence of Sunnies or other sects which do not beleive in reincarnation.
I will personally appreciate if you kindly give more information about your self at agakhani_78660@yahoo.com
Last edited by agakhani on Thu Jul 03, 2014 1:18 pm, edited 1 time in total.
tret
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Post by tret »

Admin wrote:Thanks God, we have our Dasmo Avatar, Hazrat Ali whose Noor is guiding us through eternity.

To Admin [or any member who believe in incarnation, or specifically who say Imams are re-incarnation of previous Imam]: Can you guys please explain the concept of incarnation? How the incarnation happens? Is it considered the same soul but present in every Imams physical body? Please explain as I genuinely seek to understand. I know a lot of my friends and people whom I know as well believes in incarnation, but they don't consider Imams to be re-incarnation of previous Imams. I just need to understand if the same soul is incarnated in physical body's of Imam? Thank you.
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Post by Admin »

Imam is not a soul that incarnate or reincarnate, that would be consider a falacy in the eye of all Ismailis as acording to our Doctrines confirmed by our Imams, Imam is Noor and Noor does not incarnate in anyone, it Manifest itself in the Imam-e-Zaman.

We say Farmans of "Noor" Mowlana Shah Karim, the "Noor" part is important. It shows where the Divine Light Manifest.
tret
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Post by tret »

Admin wrote:Imam is not a soul that incarnate or reincarnate, that would be consider a falacy in the eye of all Ismailis as acording to our Doctrines confirmed by our Imams, Imam is Noor and Noor does not incarnate in anyone, it Manifest itself in the Imam-e-Zaman.

We say Farmans of "Noor" Mowlana Shah Karim, the "Noor" part is important. It shows where the Divine Light Manifest.
thanks that's great.

Then I'd like you to briefly explain the concept of 10 incarnation [aka das avatar]. Does it not refer to incarnation? please.
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Post by agakhani »

Tret,
Will you believe it if Admin or some one else give you explanation of Ten incarnations?
Ask this question to your self first, otherwise it will vain efforts by admin or some one else because ...... as per your bad old habit you will find mistakes in it, so how any one can trust a person who consider as an Ismaili but find mistakes in almost every other posts even in imams farmans and ginans!!??
bro first change your self and come out from the shadow of your narrow minds.
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Post by agakhani »

BTW:-
I do not want to waste my time to explain you 10 incarnation theory again and again which I already explained to you with the farman of SMS on incarnation.
For rigid, arrogant and preduice person like you lots of senior readers stoped to post in this forum and I know Admin do not know that, any way they are few but let me tell you about Shiraz Virani he is wharehouse gowdown of knowledge but because of you he has stoped to post as he used to post in this forum I think many true amd serious readers may be miss him as I do but this os all happened because you!! Ask this question your self? Are you really an Is----i or ????????????????.
tret
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Post by tret »

Admin wrote: Imam is not a soul that incarnate or reincarnate, that would be consider a falacy in the eye of all Ismailis as acording to our Doctrines confirmed by our Imams, Imam is Noor and Noor does not incarnate in anyone, it Manifest itself in the Imam-e-Zaman.

We say Farmans of "Noor" Mowlana Shah Karim, the "Noor" part is important. It shows where the Divine Light Manifest.

Yet most of members here says that Imams are incarnation of previous Imams and same soul that comes back.

this can't be true, because for a soul to be incarnated into another physical body, the person must die first, and then the soul can come back in someone else's body. But, that's not true with Imams. Imams are alive and the next Imam from amongst his male descended are also alive at the same time. So, the present Imam as well as the next Imam have their individual soul and hence logically we can conclude that Imams are NOT reincarnation, but rather Noor-e-Imamat is manifested in THEM. Or Imams are locus of manifestation of Noor-e-Imamat.
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Post by shiraz.virani »

tret said :
Yet most of members here says that Imams are incarnation of previous Imams and same soul that comes back.

this can't be true, because for a soul to be incarnated into another physical body, the person must die first, and then the soul can come back in someone else's body. But, that's not true with Imams. Imams are alive and the next Imam from amongst his male descended are also alive at the same time. So, the present Imam as well as the next Imam have their individual soul and hence logically we can conclude that Imams are NOT reincarnation, but rather Noor-e-Imamat is manifested in THEM. Or Imams are locus of manifestation of Noor-e-Imamat.
You answered your own question and that to quite beautifully :)
tret
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Post by tret »

shiraz.virani wrote:tret said :
Yet most of members here says that Imams are incarnation of previous Imams and same soul that comes back.

this can't be true, because for a soul to be incarnated into another physical body, the person must die first, and then the soul can come back in someone else's body. But, that's not true with Imams. Imams are alive and the next Imam from amongst his male descended are also alive at the same time. So, the present Imam as well as the next Imam have their individual soul and hence logically we can conclude that Imams are NOT reincarnation, but rather Noor-e-Imamat is manifested in THEM. Or Imams are locus of manifestation of Noor-e-Imamat.
You answered your own question and that to quite beautifully :)
thanks Shiraz brother.

I was merely expressing my understanding. I know that some members don't agree with me on this point, and I just wanted to clarify this.
agakhani
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Post by agakhani »

To every one in this forum,

Half knowledge is dangerous and tough to digest.

Only, I can say you folks, first read Ismaili literature thoroughly including ginans before you put your any interpretation on any thing, your interpretation may be wrong! who knows? and wrong interpretation always misguides readers.
In my thinking reincarnation ( forget about Imam's reincarnation because it is tough to answer for me as per my little knowledge) is possible there are many Yogis in Himalayas they can enter in the body of live human being and also can leave whenever they want to, its calls 'PAR KAYA PRAVESH"[/b] for a proof I have many to suggest you guys but read Paul Burton's well known book "In search of secret India" and you will find what I am talking about.
tret
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Post by tret »

agakhani wrote:To every one in this forum,

Half knowledge is dangerous and tough to digest.

Only, I can say you folks, first read Ismaili literature thoroughly including ginans before you put your any interpretation on any thing, your interpretation may be wrong! who knows? and wrong interpretation always misguides readers.
In my thinking reincarnation ( forget about Imam's reincarnation because it is tough to answer for me as per my little knowledge) is possible there are many Yogis in Himalayas they can enter in the body of live human being and also can leave whenever they want to, its calls 'PAR KAYA PRAVESH"[/b] for a proof I have many to suggest you guys but read Paul Burton's well known book "In search of secret India" and you will find what I am talking about.
My question is specific about Imams' reincarnation [concept of das avatar maybe?].
agakhani
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Post by agakhani »

Admin,
I am really glad to know that you have plan to put some changed farmans, Paris Conference and some ginans which has been changed by some one (?)?? But changes has been made that is for sure! Who made these changes? which is still unknown but many ginan lovers point finger towards Pakistan Ismailia Association. ITREB.
I can not belive that higher authority leaders lets this kind changes happened!! and intentially spread wrong information amongst jamats even al waez like you just mentioned in your above post!,but the most thing which hurts me is ; they gives the references of MHI! for a example and I know that, none of our imams SMS or current imams ever told us to make changes in ginans.
But like ; Mazahar and Nuseri without their knowledge says these changes are permitted by imams i.e. replace the word Hari to Ali, but where, when, which day and date? They do not have answer.
I will really appreciate if you kindly put the brief details about your meeting between MHI and Amir Ali Amlani on ginans so that some dudes keep their mouth shuts.
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