Changes in the Ginans

Discussion on ginan meanings, history etc..
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ShamsB
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Discussions with Alwaezes

Post by ShamsB »

We're discussing the changing of words in our ginans...
someone posted that swami and mowla mean the same thing..yet at the same time stating that a "WOMAN CALLS HER HUSBAND SWAMI...and MOWLA MEANS PROTECTOR.
Swami, shah and mowla are all gujrati/hindi..words..but they mean different things..
when you sing ginan..you are singing from the perspective of the pir..the pir veiws the imam as Swami..the lover..not shah/mowla..the king/protector..which relationship do you want with God? do you want to be a subject or a lover?
On another note..i've had numerous discussions with Alwaezes nonetheless who've been of the mind that the old dua was another piece of hindu literature..no connection with Islam..thus have had discussions where we talked about the imams prior to Hazrat Ali..and how that was all made up by the pirs to convert us from hindus...as was the old dua...
i've given up on trying to convince people not to forsake where we came from...
We're the Satpanthi Tradition...let's keep it alive..let's not forsake our tradition for the arabist interpretations of our faith..
as Hazar Imam has said..islam allows plurlality..as does ismailism.


Shams.
star_munir
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Post by star_munir »

Dear Shams,
Please read my post again I don't wrote that Swami and Mowla means same. Actually I qouted some point of views of some popular missionaries regaridng changings in Ginan and Alwaez Abu Ali said to use exact words which are in Ginan if its Hari than say Hari if its Ali than say Ali if its Mowla say Mowla if its Swami than say Swami dont change orignal word by saying that Swami or Mowla or Hari or Ali is used for same Person thats Imam so changing will not matter. Than he told like Rehman,Rahim,Rab,Allah all are names of God but in Quran if its Rab than every one says Rab no one says Allah and say that Rab is also Allah.So use orignal wordings
_thaillestlunatic_
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Post by _thaillestlunatic_ »

star_munir wrote:continue from last post.....Abu Ali said According to Imam Ginans are wonderful tradition and Imam want us to preserve it for future Generations not to destroy it or make changings in it. He pointed out a Ginan which has original 15 verses but in book of Ginan of Tariqa board for Pakistan there are only 4 verses. Rest is taken out. Whats this??
The same is India..they are making it unauthentic.
Every nation of the world is tring its best to preseve their ancient literature in their orignal forms but ismailis are such that they wants to change it.......

Ya Aly Madat Munir,

I would like to share my thoughts and views on this

As I have been observing very recently. the library at jamatkhane does NOT have KIM or any ginan book for sale. Over talking to many missionaries and I have come to the conclusion that as per MHI farman in which he says "I am aware of the tariqah's work, they report to me" I think MHI in his role as PIR knows what ITREB is doing. Since ITREB has erased the other lines of the ginan without MHI permission. Abu Aly is 100 percent right but some in our deen just accept shariah and don't have a clue what tariqah is and so forth. Since there is no hidayat of the Imam on this issue I think we should all respect what ITREB is doing because Imam knows what they are doing and if people in ITREB aren't following their own mandate then they will be answerable to the Imam and not us.

Everything happens for a reason, maybe KIM and other Ginan books

and Farmans are not for sale for reasons. Times have changed and since

in the Ginans the Pirs talk about the faith and creation so openly, ITREB

is afraid ignorant people will tell all this to non ismailies and we will be

facing a huge dilemma. I know this is off-topic but this could be the reason

why Farmans are only to be read in JK and not anywhere else, only one

MHI Farman Mubarak book is for sale at the literature counter.

What are your thoughts?


Munir?
star_munir
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Post by star_munir »

Ya Ali Madad
I think if their purpose is to hide religion as ismailis can tell this to ignorant nonismailis and this will create problem for ismailis, this is wrong. As Non ismailis through internet can access to Ginans in orignal words and recently in Gujrat as one can read on homepage of this website will be international conference on Ginans by University of Gujrat by non ismailis. See dont you think it would be better if Itreb or Tariqa board or ismaili institution also do the same.
So what I meant is that by censoring in Ginans and Farman the loss is of ismailis and those nonismailis who want to find it can find it through internet and other sources so this may be reason that basic concepts such as about Imamat and Piratan is not known in correct manner by many ismailis of today.
faisall667
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Post by faisall667 »

Yes I totally agree. It makes me mad that they censor the parts of the ginans. Hazir Imam in his farman said that Ginans are our tradition and we should uphold them. This is my view, but I also have to respect the Tariqa and accept what they do because, Hazir Imam appointed them, and disobeying the Tariqa, is like disobeying Hazir Imam. So, even though it makes some of us angry, we should still accept what they do. The best thing would be to actually go talk to the Tariqa and maybe try to convince them into not censoring the parts of the Ginans.

Faisal :wink:
shamsu
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Protecting Lover

Post by shamsu »

YAM ShamsB,

Have read some of your posts and find them impressive.

This is my stand,

My lover is also my protector.

You see I am not the aashiq any more, I am the maashooq and he is the aashiq, he protects me and loves me both at the same time.

Or you could say, in his loving me I feel protected.

Or you could say, him protecting me is a facet of his love for me.

P.S. Note that I have not mentioned anything about me loving him. Here I am the beloved.



Shams
star_munir
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Post by star_munir »

In past I had posted views of Kamaluddin missionary on changings in Ginan in seprate topic . I had also posted views of Abu Ali and Bahadur Ali on this topic.
Now I am posting Views of Alwaez Zarina Kamaludin on topic of Ginan.
She said in her waez that .....there are totalt 630 to 700 Ginans and 58 Granths. There are many unpublished Ginans which are not published because they are not in manuscript. Some Ginans have been kept for the purpose of research [only], in these Ginans there topics like das avtaar..Our Pir inorder to convince hindus said that there are avtars and Hari has come in His tenth avtar. In 1961 Imam made Farman in Pakistan to change the word of Hari into Ali. In 1891 Farman of Zanjbar Imam said not to recite about hinduism in Ginans, it was for that time when you were hindus Now leave 9 Avtars and talk about Ali...
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Post by star_munir »

Uptil now discussion in this topic here or under many other topics we were at conclusion that there isnt any Farman regarding changes in Ginan nor it is in Paris Conference now do any one know about this Farman made in 1961????
kmaherali
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Hari and Ali

Post by kmaherali »

These are my thoughts on why we should be saying 'Hari' and not 'Ali'.

- By saying 'Ali' we are distorting the integrity of our traditions. Consider the following interpretation of the word 'Hari' given by Paramahansa Yogananda as:

"Hari, "the stealer" of hearts, is a name given to Sri Krishna as an incarnation of Vishnu. In this role as an avatar, he takes away the evil of maya from the hearts of receptive devotees so that their purified devotion flows unceasingly in worshipful adoration of the Lord."

Saying Ali would not convey the above sense of Hari although off course one could construe it as such.

- By saying Hari we are acknowledging the plurality of our tradition - that it is not restricted to a particular context of space and time. As stated by Imam Sultan Muhammad Shah in his memoirs:

"Muslims indeed know no limitation merely to the Prophets of Israel; they are ready to admit that there were similar Divinely inspired messengers in other countries Gautama Buddha, Shri Krishna and Shri Ram in India, Socrates in Greece, the wise man of China and many other sages and saints among peoples and civilizations, trace of which we have lost. Thus man's soul has never been left without a specially inspired messenger from the soul that sustains, embraces and is the universe."
star_munir
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Post by star_munir »

KmaherAli I agree with your thoughts and point of views. I checked the Farman of Imam Sultan Muhammad Shah, in that Farman Imam not said to not recite Ginans about Das Avtar,can you write the English translation of that part of Farman? And Do you know is there any Farman of Imam in 1961 in Pak to say Ali instead of Hari???
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Post by kmaherali »

star_munir wrote:KmaherAli I agree with your thoughts and point of views. I checked the Farman of Imam Sultan Muhammad Shah, in that Farman Imam not said to not recite Ginans about Das Avtar,can you write the English translation of that part of Farman? And Do you know is there any Farman of Imam in 1961 in Pak to say Ali instead of Hari???
YAM Munir,
Can you let me have the date and place where the Farman was made. I will try to tanslate it. I have no idea of this Farman of 1961 and in which context it was made. Perhaps someone like Kasmali from Pakistan could enlighten us on this.
star_munir
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Post by star_munir »

The date of Farrman of KIM is of 20 August 1899.It was in Zanzibar.
kmaherali
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Post by kmaherali »

star_munir wrote:The date of Farrman of KIM is of 20 August 1899.It was in Zanzibar.
Here is my attempt at a translation.

"It is not appropriate that you should discuss matters pertaining to Hinduism as an aspect of knowledge. When you were Hindus, Pir Sadardin showed you the way. That time has now gone.

Now you should praise Mowla and his progeny. Read about the praises of HazarImam. Now abandon 9 manifestations ( nav avtar). Read about the praises of the 10th manifestation which is comprised of our forefathers. Read the Ginans wherein the 10th manifestation is explained."
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Post by star_munir »

KMaherAli thanks for writing English translation but as you wrote last line,"Read the Ginans wherein the 10th manifestation is explained."
I think it is that Imam says to read das avtar in Ginans but not to believe in other false stories...;[from other sources]
Am I right or wrong ? as in this Farman also Imam told that all stories associated with Karbala and Imam Hussain are not completly correct. Its right that Imam Hussain was martyred but enemies not made insult of Ahl-e-Bayt...
nagib
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Post by nagib »

Can someone translate. The first verse is from original wordind, the second verse is the same with a modern touch.

1) Ali rupe Hari aawiyaa

2) Ali rupe Ali awiyaa.

Does it make sense to change ginans?

And if Pir Sadardin wrote the original wording but Jafferbhai is responsible for changing the wording, should we not change also the last verse to say boliya boliya master jafferbhay? That would be a nice recognition, wouldn't it ;-)
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Post by kmaherali »

star_munir wrote:I think it is that Imam says to read das avtar in Ginans but not to believe in other false stories...;[from other sources]
Am I right or wrong ? as in this Farman also Imam told that all stories associated with Karbala and Imam Hussain are not completly correct. Its right that Imam Hussain was martyred but enemies not made insult of Ahl-e-Bayt...
YAM Munir
I am inclined to agree with you. Zanzibar at that time was very diverse and cosmopolitan and our Ismailis were subject to and influenced by a variety of story tellers, magicians etc.
kmaherali
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Post by kmaherali »

nagib wrote:And if Pir Sadardin wrote the original wording but Jafferbhai is responsible for changing the wording, should we not change also the last verse to say boliya boliya master jafferbhay? That would be a nice recognition, wouldn't it ;-)
I hope you are referring to jafferbhai in a generic sense of an "intelligent" man and not a particular Jafferbhai.
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Post by star_munir »

Mowla Ali Madad,

I am writing what I understood from the Farman of Imam on August 20, 1899 in Zanzibar.
Here I dont think that Imam is saying not to recite or read Ginans about das avtaar but not to believe in false stories asccociated with them as KmaherAli wrote English translation..I have this Farman in audio from what I heard...in Farman Imam said that..... hinduvo ni vatoo ilm maa parho cho tey wajabi nathi...dasva avtaar maa amara dada ni tareef parho. Ginan wacho, tema das avtaar no bayan chey tey wacho Qisa bayan maa jey magaj chey tey parho par tema beeji khoti watoo likhay li chey tey nahi parho.

Before this Imam also told that the story of Imam Hussain which we hear is not exactly correct as in Farman Imam told that "Ema Mullavo ni kaitlik banavat per chay."
Imam told that it is right that they martyred Imam Hussain but it is wrong that they made insult of Ahl-e-Bayat.

So now from this we can see that the history of Imam Hussain is not hundred percent correct than how could be stories asscocited with these 9 avtaars can be exactly correct or accurate. Like if any one will read it from begining he or she may find them scientifically incorrect as according to stories and legends the world is in ocean and water and was drown down in it so Hari take avtaar to save land and vedas etc.
But on the other hand we can find the truth here that it could be understood as per theory of Evolution. As Imam explained in mission conference that when all life on earth was in the form of fishes than Imam had to be in the form of fish to guide them.
There is also Farman to understand das avtaar from Islamic point of view and there is also waez of Alwaez Abu Ali on topic of das avtaar in which he explained it from Islamic and Scientific point of views.
Also at that period of time many Ismailis were unaware of meanings of Quran. So Sunni and Shia Mullah molvis used to misguide them so Imam in that Farman also told them clear not to follow them [Arabs and Moguls]
They themselves do not know anything, then what will they teach you? and to Follow the teachings of Pir Sadardin
nagib
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Post by nagib »

kmaherali wrote:
nagib wrote:And if Pir Sadardin wrote the original wording but Jafferbhai is responsible for changing the wording, should we not change also the last verse to say boliya boliya master jafferbhay? That would be a nice recognition, wouldn t it ;-)
I hope you are referring to jafferbhai in a generic sense of an "intelligent" man and not a particular Jafferbhai.
Obviously, in the sense that one would use in English "Tom, Dick and Henry", as a generic name. Though -Jaffer- is good, I could have written Kassam bhay ;-) , I think there is also a farman that said if Jaffer did something, do not say Jaffer did, say that God allowed him to do... or something imilar...
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Post by kmaherali »

nagib wrote:Obviously, in the sense that o­ne would use in English "Tom, Dick and Henry", as a generic name. Though "Jaffer" is good, I could have written Kassam bhay ;-) , I think there is also a farman that said if Jaffer did something, don't say Jaffer did, say that God allowed him to do... or something imilar...
I was thinking perhaps you meant Jaffer as someone who thought himself better than the Pir and hence could change the words of the Ginan.
kasamali
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Post by kasamali »

star_munir wrote:In past I had posted views of Kamaluddin missionary on changings in Ginan in seprate topic ........
Now I am posting Views of Alwaez Zarina Kamaludin on topic of Ginan.
She said in her waez that .......Our Pir inorder to convince hindus said that there are avtars and Hari has come in His tenth avtar. In 1961 Imam made Farman in Pakistan to change the word of Hari into Ali. In 1891 Farman of Zanjbar Imam said not to recite about hinduism in Ginans, it was for that time when you were hindus Now leave 9 Avtars and talk about Ali...[/b]
If ' Starmunir' has correctly worded the above underlined message of Alwaeza Zarina Kamaluddin regarding Ginans, then in my honest opinion, Zarina has improperly interpreted the Farman of ISMS OF Zanjibar of 20th August 1899. does she want to convey that the concept of ' Das Avatar' has no reality and it was used as a artifice to lure the innocent Hindus to convert to Ismailis?

Please read the Farman again which I reproduce below:

" It is not proper to read Hinduism stories for Ilm knowledge ; at the time when you were Hindu, Pir Sadardin shown you the way. That time passed.

Now read praises of Maula and his descendent's, read praises of Hazar Imam, give up nine Avatars. In tenth Avatar, read praises of our forefather's,read Ginans, read description of tenth Avatar given in them."

All what ISMS wanted to covey to the Jamat that they should read about Ismaili Imams (10th Avatar) , read and study those Ginans where 'Ali's' description as tenth Avatar is given and read about the praises of the ' Imam of the Time.' And that is what is Ismailism is all about. He did not say that the concept of 10 Avatars was wrong or incorrect and that it was just used by Pirs for conversion purpose. There are no wordings in the Farman which even insinuates such a message.

If the same Farman is read further, ISMS even instructs the Jamat not to read stories related to 'Karbala' as they were of no use to Jamat. Let us see how that Farman proceeds:

" Read the essence out of events and stories, do not read wrong description, it is of no use now to describe the stories of 1200 years." ( Note: ISMS then refers to Muharam and Karbala, which part I have not given here)

Does that mean the event of karbala did not take place? All he wanted from the jamat they should concentrate on history of Ismaili Imams and the essence in general -- and about activities of 'the Imam of the Time' in particular.

Let me further explain, to the best of my understanding, as to why that Farman was made: Even in city like Bombay, where there were many waezeens in the period of early 1960's, I have not heard any waezin giving information to Jamat about Imamat during Fatimid or Almut period. Even though the book of 'Noorum Mubin' was in circulation at that time for last several years, to my best of knowledge, only one family out of 20 may have possessed it let alone was it read thoroughly.

If such was the condition in 1960 in city like Bombay, one can easily imagine what would have been the religious knowledge of Ismailism by the general jamat during 1899 at Zanzibar. So before interpreting this Farman of ISMS of 1899, one should take all such things into consideration and not to make any such meaning which was not intended there.

Well we all know that in his memoirs, ISMS has already mentioned divinity to Ram, Krishna and others.

Next take bold letters' part of Zarina's waez, provided they are actual representative words of the Waeza. To my best of knowledge and informations I gathered form others is that Hazar Imam visited Pakistan in later part of September 1960 and then in November 1964. He did not visit Pakistan in 1961. I request starmunir to check his notes of Zarina's waez.
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Post by star_munir »

Ya Ali Madad Kasam Ali,

As you wrote that:

"If' Starmunir' has correctly worded the above underlined message of Alwaeza Zarina Kamaluddin regarding Ginans, then in my honest opinion, Zarina has improperly interpreted the Farman of ISMS OF Zanjibar of 20th August 1899. does she want to convey that the concept of ' Das Avatar' has no reality and it was used as a artifice to lure the innocent Hindus to convert to Ismailis?"


If you think that I have not properly quoted the words and am writing wrong than you may check out it from waez cassette of Alwaez Zarina Kamaluddin on subject of Ginan. Also I would recommend you to listen to the waezes and lectures of Alwaez Kamluddin on topic of "Quran and Ginan".


As you wrote the English translation of Farman that


" It is not proper to read Hinduism stories for Ilm knowledge ; at the time when you were Hindu, Pir Sadardin shown you the way. That time passed.

Now read praises of Maula and his descendent's, read praises of Hazar Imam, give up nine Avatars. In tenth Avatar, read praises of our forefather's,read Ginans, read description of tenth Avatar given in them."

I would just like to confirm it from you that Imam said read description of tenth avtaar given in them or ten avtars given in them? As you have read in my earlier post in my views I wrote that there are false and illogical stories related to concept of Das Avtar thats why Imam told not to read false stories for knowledge read about 10 avtar in Ginan. So is it ten or tenth....?As there is also farman to study this concept from Islamic point of view and there is also waez of Abu Ali on concept of das avtar in which he tried explaining it from Islamic and Scientific [theory of evolution] point of view.
If it is tenth..than is it incorrect to recite the verses of Ginans with the names of Das Avtar as per Farman? as it is main topic of discussion here changings in Ginan.

you made request that,
"To my best of knowledge and informations I gathered form others is that Hazar Imam visited Pakistan in later part of September 1960 and then in November 1964. He did not visit Pakistan in 1961. I request starmunir to check his notes of Zarina's waez."

I will check it out again and within two or three days I will reply to you regarding this.
Last edited by star_munir on Wed Sep 12, 2012 9:36 pm, edited 1 time in total.
star_munir
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Post by star_munir »

Ya Ali Madad Kasam Ali,
The topic of waez is "Message of Ginan",its by Zarina Kamaluddin and as volume was not clear in cassette I got, the year of Farman was either 1961 0r 1951 in Pakistan. As I am not sure but I think she said 1961 but you may check out both years.
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Post by star_munir »

My purpose of writting that was not for crticizing any ismaili missionary. I have wrote point of views of Bahadur Ali,Abu Ali, Kamaluddin and Zarina Kamaluddin so one may read different point of views of different missionaries on same topic. I just wrote what they said in their various waezes. The purpose was only to discuss different point of views. I am not against any of them nor I am saying all are right. No one is perfect and there can be differ of views and opinions and thats what I wrote.
nagib
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Post by nagib »

The false information that Hazar Imam may have approved changes in the ginans has been discussed several times at various world Ismailia Assiations meeting [ITREB was named Ismailia Association before 1986] and each time it has been concluded that this was false news by people who wanted those changes. Each time it was concluded that Hazar Imam never wanted those changes.

I have read personaly some of the reports during that time [pre-1986] and at that time I also had copies but this is a long time ago and after all the moving the documents are not handy.

But it is always sad that documents disappear faster then false rumours.

Nagib
=====================
Afreeda^-^
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Post by Afreeda^-^ »

ok. umm.....u know on the home page of this web there is something call "Fair" and i was wondering y cant i play all the ginans? or is it just my computer? cuz i really wanna learn the ginan called Dur Deshthi Aayo. :!: :? :? :? :? :? :? :? :? :? :? :?: [/code]
ZAly
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Post by ZAly »

Please I think we are missing a very important point here. Christainity, Judaism, Islam are all God sent religions. Quran, Bible etc are all Divine scriptures. However Hinduism was not a religion sent by God, nor was Geeta a Divine scripture. <BR>We have to be very clear o&shy;n this. That is why I think it is necessary to make changes in the Ginans. In the past Ginans were used to convert Hindu Pagans to Islam. Now that we are Muslims we dont need to follow Hari, Krishan, Geeta, Vishnu. That is not a part of Islam, and it never was.
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Post by kmaherali »

ZAly wrote:Please I think we are missing a very important point here. Christainity, Judaism, Islam are all God sent religions. Quran, Bible etc are all Divine scriptures. However Hinduism was not a religion sent by God, nor was Geeta a Divine scripture. <BR>We have to be very clear o&shy;n this. That is why I think it is necessary to make changes in the Ginans. In the past Ginans were used to convert Hindu Pagans to Islam. Now that we are Muslims we dont need to follow Hari, Krishan, Geeta, Vishnu. That is not a part of Islam, and it never was.
That is a very parochial view of Islam. Islam is universal in space and time. It is not restricted to a particular geographical area or a period of time. Imam Sultan Muhammad Shah says in his memoir:

"All Islamic schools of thought accept it as a fundamental principle that for centuries, for thousands of years before the advent of Mohammed, there arose from time to time messengers, illumined by Divine Grace, for and among those races of the earth which had sufficiently advanced intellectually to comprehend such a message. Thus Abraham, Moses, Jesus and all the Prophets of Israel are universally accepted by Islam. Muslims indeed know no limitation merely to the Prophets of Israel; they are ready to admit that there were similar Divinely inspired messengers in other countriesGautama Buddha, Shri Krishna and Shri Ram in India, Socrates in Greece, the wise man of China and many other sages and saints among peoples and civilizations, trace of which we have lost. Thus man's soul has never been left without a specially inspired messenger from the soul that sustains, embraces and is the universe."
star_munir
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Post by star_munir »

so do you mean if it was just to convert hindus that means all were lie in Ginans so hindus may leave their religion and accept Islam?
Pir Shams in Garbi Nar Kasam Shah naa Farman...tells that He showed the mysteries of four veds and four kitabs in reciting verses of Ginans.
kinnare786
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Changing of words in ginan

Post by kinnare786 »

The fact is that most of Ismailis do not communicate with populus outside our tariqa. I think reason is lack of knoweldge. We can simple go to site of Jamat Islami and other site. Ask them question and try to reason with them it will greatly benefit Ummah as a whole.
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