Changes in the Ginans

Discussion on ginan meanings, history etc..
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kmaherali
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Post by kmaherali »

nuseri wrote: To Kmaherali: Ya Ali madad.
A very valuable posting made by you on farman on inaugural of golden jubilee.....
Well keep it going.what is definition of traditions n Tariqa in IIS syllabus?
Ya Ali Madad Nuseri,
The Farman is actually the excerpt from the completion of the GJ on Dec 13 2008. The definition of traditions in our tariqah would be: trasmission or perpetuation of our outlook of life, attitudes, beliefs, values, customs, practices and approches to faith.
Some of the statements in the Oct 1988 Farman in this regard:

"Our Jamat has a living Imam and it is our tradition, it is our belief, that it is the Imam of the Time that gives guidance and direction in masters concerning the Tariqah.I wish it therefore to be well understood that I will continue to give guidance on matters concerning the Tariqah, that I will give you the direction which I believe is the direction which you should follow and that in looking at the Jamat around the world, I will be conscious of differences of tradition and I will note them. I will reflect about them. I will look at them with love and affection."

"Our tradition goes back centuries. It is an esoteric tradition; it is an intellectual tradition; it is a personal tradition; it is a tradition that stems from Hazrat Ali and there will be no compromise on the essence of those traditions."
nuseri wrote: BTW ,All Jamatkhanas in India TODAY evening are celebrating with Sagdidham the visit of Noorani family to India n celebrate the award given to MHI.
I will eat one samosa (starters) each on behalf of each haqiqati member in this forum n have less of biryani (main course) n halwa (dessert).Can try to parcel dahi cachumber (salad) to one shariati in Boston.

This visit also gives the world a grand introduction of Prince Aly Mohammed as his companion.

HOWE HOWE AAJ EH RAAJ MUBARAK HOWE
Mubarakis to you on this occasion! A great honour to the Imam and the Jamat. Also great news about AKTC involvement in the Taj Mahal restoration. I hope you enjoy(ed) yourself.

I would caution you not to read too much on Prince Aly Muhammed's appearance (which was very pleasant to witness).
nuseri
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Post by nuseri »

To Kmaherali :Ya Ali Madad.

I did celebarated the sagdidham on 08 April.

surprisingly there were no starters but very delicious kulfi falooda as dessert.
I had a go at it and took many portions and remembering all faithful forum members.

I must thank you for posting the extract of landmark golden jubilee farman.I have used that extract to befitting the topic elsewhere.


Secondly I noted that you have in 12 years heavily depended of printed material or memory of what was heard by you that now used the word 'Ya Ali Madad".so I assume that you also wish to seek help from ALI to reply your postings .Remember Prophet used these word to seek real help from ALI n not to greet those around Him.
So the law of limitation is catching upon you.

I had asked for numbers of farmans in quantity n not asked the content per se? Please reply to that effect.

Does IIS teaches one HOW TO READ IMAM'S FARMAN n understand on what he really mean to get the message across?.

If brand name Ali+lah=Allah speaks in parables in Quran ,IT WOULD BE NATURAL that ALI of the time speaks discreetly to deeply understand the farmans /ayats.
Admin
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Post by Admin »

Observation and Comments on our Modern Ginanic Literature

Follow-up to Paris Conference 1975. The 1980 Nairobi Ismailia Association International Review Meeting.

This is the paper presented at the Ismailia Association International Review Meeting in Nairobi, Kenya on 1980 by the Ismailia Association for Canada. The paper explains how some articles of the report by Rupani of the Paris Conference 1975 have created some mis-representations and how some Ginans books printed by the Ismailia Association for Pakistan were in fact against the decisions and the spirit of what Our beloved Imam said at the Paris Conference.

The report is endorsed by President Amirali P. Haji of the Ismailia Association for Canada who attended the Conference in Paris in 1975.

The complete Report is attached here in PDF format.

The second part, Appendix 1, Review Sheets has been added as the scans are now completed. - the second part provides a comparative analysis and comments on some major changes that have taken places in Ginan books published after the Paris Conference 1975 by Ismailia Association for Pakistan (Though Pakistan has not been named specifically) outside the directives of the Imam.

Go to the link below to download all files.

http://www.ismaili.net/heritage/node/31647
fayaz006
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Post by fayaz006 »

Admin YAM

The report that you posted was detailed and raised several questions in my mind. In Paris conference notes by Rupani, it is mentioned that Ginans of Cat C would be collected for research but not modified. However the replies from Ismaili association of Canada suggest that there was a resolution to modify Ginans of Cat C and B.

Also it appears that the is no one clearly defined what Hindu Elements are. since according to MSMS farman (paraphrased) mentioned in the report that Pir Sadardin has narrated and composed Holy Ginans out of the interpretation of the Holy Quran and he could equate every verse of the Ginan to the ayat of the Quran.

If the above mentioned farman to me clearly suggests that there are no hindu elements in the Quran. which begs question why change them?
agakhani
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Post by agakhani »

Thanks Admin I was awaiting this for long time. you sure fulfilled your promise. Thanks again, this is a Golden treasure for a Ginanic lover like me!
If the above mentioned farman to me clearly suggests that there are no hindu elements in the Quran. which begs question why change them?
Basically there were no need to make changes in ginans and, there is no need to change it even right now! it is a just a matter of languages but any how one Association went one step ahead and changed it in under the shelter of Paris Conference 1975 and Hindu elements ; while other Associations remain quiet and unchanged.
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Post by Admin »

It is clear that there are no Hindu elements in the Ginans. The Ginans never preached Hinduism. There are indian vocabulary in the Ginans. Obviously the vocabulary could not be Russian or Chinese or Arabic when talking to Indian people in those time.

In the same way prophet Muhammad confirmed some part of the Jewish and Christian beliefs as been part of the eternal truth though not in Arabic, the Ginans also have confirmed that SOME parts of Hinduism is also part of the same universal truth.

This also explains why many of the basic values of humanity are common to each and every faith. This is because the divine message comes from the same source and Allah is not limited in whom to send his message and to whom to send his messengers.

Once this basic premise is accepted, understanding any religion becomes very easy.
mazhar
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Post by mazhar »

Admin wrote:It is clear that there are no Hindu elements in the Ginans. The Ginans never preached Hinduism. There are indian vocabulary in the Ginans. Obviously the vocabulary could not be Russian or Chinese or Arabic when talking to Indian people in those time.

In the same way prophet Muhammad confirmed some part of the Jewish and Christian beliefs as been part of the eternal truth though not in Arabic, the Ginans also have confirmed that SOME parts of Hinduism is also part of the same universal truth.

This also explains why many of the basic values of humanity are common to each and every faith. This is because the divine message comes from the same source and Allah is not limited in whom to send his message and to whom to send his messengers.
Reply by Mazhar,

I am lost in the wilderness of this post. You wrote there are no Hindu elements in Ginans. Than what is Das avtars, Kachh.muchh, korenmb, Pandvas, Drupadhi, Tara Rani, Haresh chandra, names of Hindu gods etc.
Hinduism is totally different religion in comparison to Judaism, Christianity, and Islam. Hazar Imam has not included, Maha Bharata, Ramayan, Gita, Puranas or Vedas with the books of Ahl ul Kitab in His Farmans. Main question is of doctrines, philosophy, and basic tenets of Islam.
The basic common values of humanity are because of laws of nature and they are universal, whether you believe in God or not.
Thanx, atleast you wrote ALLAH IS NOT LIMITED.
kmaherali
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Post by kmaherali »

mazhar wrote:Reply by Mazhar,

I am lost in the wilderness of this post. You wrote there are no Hindu elements in Ginans. Than what is Das avtars, Kachh.muchh, korenmb, Pandvas, Drupadhi, Tara Rani, Haresh chandra, names of Hindu gods etc.
Hinduism is totally different religion in comparison to Judaism, Christianity, and Islam. Hazar Imam has not included, Maha Bharata, Ramayan, Gita, Puranas or Vedas with the books of Ahl ul Kitab in His Farmans. Main question is of doctrines, philosophy, and basic tenets of Islam.
The basic common values of humanity are because of laws of nature and they are universal, whether you believe in God or not.
Thanx, atleast you wrote ALLAH IS NOT LIMITED.
For Das avtars I will recommend you read the thread below, then you will know their real meaning in Satpanth tradition,

The DARSHAN OF DAS AVTAAR
http://www.ismaili.net/html/modules.php ... opic&t=344

What is wrong with the names Pandavs, Drupadi, Harish Chandra (the Light of God). Just because they are names in an Indian language does not make them un-Islamic.

In his Memoirs MSMS recognises other Prophets and their messages so what is wrong with their scriptures? The Hindu religion was derived from the pure Godhead just as Christianity and Judaism, but they all got corrupted.

"Then what need was there for a Divine revelation to Mohammed ?

The answer of Islam is precise and clear. In spite of its great spiritual strength, Jewish monotheism has retained two characteristics which render it essentially different from Islamic monotheism: God has remained, in spite of all, a national and racial God for the children of Israel, and His personality is entirely separate from its supreme manifestation, the Universe. In far-distant countries such as India and China, the purity of the Faith in the one God had been so vitiated by polytheism, by idolatry and even by a pantheism which was hardly distinguishable from atheism that these popular and folklore religions bore little resemblance to that which emanated from the true and pure Godhead. Christianity lost its strength and meaning for Muslims in that it saw it great and glorious founder not as a man but as God incarnate in man, as God made Flesh."

So the Imam is considering Hinduism in the same manner as he is considering Judaism and Christianity - all of them having been corrupted.
nuseri
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Post by nuseri »

Ya Ali Madad.
In our tariqa ,What Imam feels n oreder in final binding for us.
The trend of presentation papers n observation are from those who may have had narrow dimension of our faith or ever being blessed baatin upon them.
I am not against Ginans but volume of unwarranted ones.
Many acts are taken by the board with direct orders from MHI.
Imam knows the current period n future period on what he desires from Momins.
admin few question for you (no emotions or passion please)
1.How many ginan the full content you know by heart( not reading it)
and able to recite at one go.

2.if a scholar has a test say at the age of 15 and ginans being one of the subjects along with dua,tasbih,ibaadat,qasida.
if a question paper is of 90 minutes than if ginan carries 20 marks out of 100. How many ginan should a scholars know by heart to answer that section.? what is a capabilty of a human mind to store the data.
Remeber the same scholars has to study for his livehood the secular subject of the school.

if the mandate of the Ginan was/is to believe in ALI as god and introduce him/her to imam of the time,who would take over with farmans for the period.
if a blessed haqiqati status is achieved by a Momin out of ginans ,should he/she still keep digging into it till death or move upward still for farmans ,khidmat, ibaadat.

In the past 1400/700 years back people were mainly illiterate n had ample of time then.
Time changes so does the form n time changes to adapt it.

I can present a well researched paper that in year 2015,(40 year gone from 1975) that only 50% of present in circulation of quality n rich in spirituality is needed for us ismailis to achieve the mandate set out from it.

Think as an educated mind n time available by a person to fulfill his spiritual obligations?
ALI precisely knows that on how much a person should praise him,seek his grace, progress his soul and help humanity and lead a quality life for family as well.

The basics of scholars here is that mostly try less to understand ,know and communicate in baatin with ALI and more interested what is written on ALI by third persons n doctrines unrelated to our daily life of today times.

ALI NEED OVER MANY MANY THUOSANDS QUALITATIVE KHIDMATGARS for humanity thru his umbrella N MAY BE NEED FEW ACADEMICS N GINAN SCHOLARS to serve his purpose.
see where is the vacancy n where a person can stay unemployed n frustrated.

SAMAJDARO KO ISHARA KAFI HAI.
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Post by Admin »

In the past 1400/700 years back people were mainly illiterate n had ample of time then. Time changes so does the form n time changes to adapt it.
Time changes and we still have as many illiterate people.

Completely useless post. What does it bring to posterity? Nothing. So why waste time?

When you post anything, please think over; "Is my post going to bring any kind of knowledge to future generations?" If not, please do not feel obliged to post.

Many time one sees a post and feels the urge to reply but why do it? there should be some purpose, something of value!

This applies to all. it is a general non-discriminatory statement.
kmaherali
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Post by kmaherali »

nuseri wrote: if the mandate of the Ginan was/is to believe in ALI as god and introduce him/her to imam of the time,who would take over with farmans for the period.
if a blessed haqiqati status is achieved by a Momin out of ginans ,should he/she still keep digging into it till death or move upward still for farmans ,khidmat, ibaadat.

In the past 1400/700 years back people were mainly illiterate n had ample of time then.
Time changes so does the form n time changes to adapt it.
The mandate of the Ginans was not simply to introduce Imamat. It was to provide guidance and wisdom to nurture the soul. Ginans by definition is contemplative knowledge and it provides the necessay 'food' for spiritual elevation. The more a person progresses on the path, the deeper will his understanding of the Ginans. It is not just one level of knowledge, there are multiple levels of meaniing and wisdom in the Ginans. So it is not correct to say that as one progresses in Ibadat, Ginans are not relevant.

MSMS has said that Ginans and Farmans are equal and that the Ginans are the tafsir of the Qur'an.

For this kind of knowledge you always have to create time, whether it is the past or the present.
nuseri
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Post by nuseri »

To Team pranalika:: I had asked specific questions to admin now open to others.

ai in 2015 does one wishes to dumped or enforced to 1000 ginans or
numbers what one's absorption n memory to remember n understand.
ginan are not directly farmans but deep understanding of it is.

I need specific answer n not an extract of unrelated farman as an escapist from basic question asked.
agakhani
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Post by agakhani »

If I understand your question right then my answer is:

Yes, I would like to have all available 600 ginans and even more if possible!, and these ginans should be recites in all JK in the world with its original texts!!! I will love to have those ginans from Khojki, Gujarati and Punjabi which are never published before these ginans should also be published and distributed among jamats all over the world !
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Post by Admin »

The Farmans are clear, The Farmans say that the ginans are to be kept for children yet to be born and from generations to generations.

I think the children of the future will have an intelligence more developed than those of our time (obviously) and they will be better positioned to understand the depth of the ginans.

I agree that we need to find more Ginans. In fact we are working in finding those unpublished ones that Mukhi Lalji Devraj was referring to and that unfortunately he could not publish because he died so soon. I recall we have found 26 so far but will unearth many many more in the coming years Inshallah.

If anyone comes across old handwritten Khojki manuscript, please contact us on heritage@ismaili.net as we know how to preserve them and also how to preserve their contents. Thank you.
nuseri
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Post by nuseri »

Ya Ali madad:
I have not asked i.e money on how much million dollars one wish to have but is reality of one has.
My specific questions is what is each one of you indivual capaity of knowing ginan by heart n able to recite without any help.( like dua/tasbih).
Number in specific.
It seem most haqiqati members wishes to undermine n dis regard ibaadat,khidmat n aashique to move toward as a marfati momin where words are limited but actions are aloud.
They only wish to dig and relish based on their cleverness and comfort zone
to dig deep n drown into data of 1400/1000/700 years old data n manuscript.
If one wishes to live n die as haqiqati scholars( zahir category),It is their wish.I assume they value farman of living Imam less than the data telling about Imam from medivial ages.
may God bless your efforts.
nuseri
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Post by nuseri »

Ya Ali madad:
I have not asked i.e money on how much million dollars one wish to have but is reality of one has.
My specific questions is what is each one of you indivual capaity of knowing ginan by heart n able to recite without any help.( like dua/tasbih).
Number in specific.
It seem most haqiqati members wishes to undermine n dis regard ibaadat,khidmat n aashique to move toward as a marfati momin where words are limited but actions are aloud.
They only wish to dig and relish based on their cleverness and comfort zone
to dig deep n drown into data of 1400/1000/700 years old data n manuscript.
If one wishes to live n die as haqiqati scholars( zahir category),It is their wish.I assume they value farman of living Imam less than the data telling about Imam from medivial ages.
may God bless your efforts.
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Post by Admin »

There is no such thing as "imam of the Medieval times" We only have an Imam-e-Zaman. Hazar Imam has said Farmans of the past Imams are his Farmans and he is the Imam of the Time.

So to be Farman-bardari, contrary to some, we are going to save the manuscripts in order to preserve the Ginans and other information for generations yet to be born. And we are going to help recreate history from digging deeper into those manuscripts because our history and documents have been destroyed, sometimes on purpose.
agakhani
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Post by agakhani »

There is a farman of current MHI which was made in Karachi , in that farmans MHI has insisted and emphasized importance of manuscripts and original texts and encouraged more and more students to join in study its original texts and original manuscripts from Gujarati, Urdu, Persian and Arabic languages not only for ginans but on every things. (Not exact wording) upon request detail about this farman will be provided.
Last edited by agakhani on Sun Apr 19, 2015 8:49 am, edited 4 times in total.
kmaherali
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Post by kmaherali »

nuseri wrote:Ya Ali madad:
I have not asked i.e money on how much million dollars one wish to have but is reality of one has.
My specific questions is what is each one of you indivual capaity of knowing ginan by heart n able to recite without any help.( like dua/tasbih).
Number in specific.
It seem most haqiqati members wishes to undermine n dis regard ibaadat,khidmat n aashique to move toward as a marfati momin where words are limited but actions are aloud.
They only wish to dig and relish based on their cleverness and comfort zone
to dig deep n drown into data of 1400/1000/700 years old data n manuscript.
If one wishes to live n die as haqiqati scholars( zahir category),It is their wish.I assume they value farman of living Imam less than the data telling about Imam from medivial ages.
may God bless your efforts.
There is no need to learn the Ginans by heart to understand and contemplate on them. We can get the essential wisdom by reading and reflecting upon them. Reciting like a parrot does not lead to understanding.

Benefitting from the wisdom and knowledge of the Ginans does not undermine obedience to the present Farmans, ibadat and khidmat. On the contrary it inspires more khidmat and ibadat.

There is no question about valuing less the current Farmans. Infact the current Farmans encourage us to learn the Ginans.

There is much to learn from the past. Think about it. How could the people who lived thousands of years before build a pyramid? Do you think they were primitive? Or were they more advanced than us? Shouldn't we learn from them?
agakhani
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Post by agakhani »

Admin,
Or any one know more on changing in ginans,

I read all reports along with Appendix I and II with keen interest .
I would like to know what action Nairobi Asociation has been taken after presenting report by Ismailia Association for Canada?
Did this report forwarded to MHI? if yes! then any action had been taken by imam?
Are those inappropriately changed ginans are still recited in Pakistan?
Did any sister Association besides Pakistan make changes according Paris conference?
As a die hard ginanic fans I will appreciate if any one can gives me more idetails on my above questions.
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Post by Admin »

As you may know, Ismailis in pakistan still recites changes in the ginans and as they settle elsewhere they take with them the legacy of Kassamali which was based on fear of the "Muslims" who would attack us if we would have any Hindi words left in out literature.

however Imam knows in his immense wisdom hat sanity will come back in our thinking some days and that is why he has asked us to preserve that ginans for generations "yet to be born".

As of the Farman that it was the responsibility of the Ismailia Association to teach the ginans, they have failed miserably.
nuseri
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Post by nuseri »

To Agakhani: Ya Ali Madad.

It is good to hear that you are a die hard fan of Ginans.
It would be better as I would wish for you
To be a die hard lover of 'ALI'.
and an ardent admirer of Ginans.
Why just be a reader raise yourself to be
as good as a composer of Ginans?
remember Imam SMS farmans.
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Post by Admin »

Any "die hard" lover of Ginan has no option but to be "die hard" lover of Ali because the whole of the Ginanic corpus point to the love of Ali.
agakhani
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Post by agakhani »

Any "die hard" lover of Ginan has no option but to be "die hard" lover of Ali because the whole of the Ginanic corpus point to the love of Ali.



Thanks Admin,

For answering the exactly my thoughts which first came in my mind after reading Nuseri's above post!!.

Nuseri,

Yes, I have love towards Ali which I can not measure it! because there is no measurement found yet to show it :lol:
ShamsB
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Post by ShamsB »

This is for my friend Nuseri - and others who somehow have gotten it into their heads that because they proclaim what they proclaim - everyone else is wrong.

Story by Leo Tolstoy.

Three men became very famous saints in Russia.
The highest priest of the country was very much disturbed — obviously, because people were not coming to him, people were going to those three saints, and he had not even heard their names. And how could they be saints? — because in Christianity a saint is a saint only when the church recognizes him as a saint. The English word ‘saint’ comes from ‘sanction'; when the church sanctions somebody as a saint, then he is a saint. What nonsense! that a saint has to be certified by the church, by the organized religion, by the priests — as if it has nothing to do with inner growth but some outer recognition; as if it is a title given by a government, or a degree, an honorary degree, conferred by a university.
The high priest was certainly very angry. He took a boat because those three saints used to live on the far side of a lake. He went in the boat. Those three saints were sitting under a tree. They were very simple people, peasants, uneducated. They touched the feet of the highest priest, and the priest was very happy. He thought, “Now I will put them right — these are not very dangerous people. I was thinking they would be rebels or something.” He asked them, “How did you become saints?”
They said, “We don’t know! We don’t know that we are saints either. People have started calling us saints and we go on trying to convince them that we are not, we are very simple people, but they don’t listen. The more we argue that we are not, the more they worship us! And we are not very good at arguing either.”
The priest was very happy. He said, “What is your prayer? Do you know how to pray?”
They looked at each other. The first said to the second, “You say.” The second said to the third, “You say, please.”
The priest said, “Say what your prayer is! Are you saying Our Lord’s Prayer or not?”
They said, “To be frank with you, we don’t know any prayer. We have invented a prayer of our own and we are very embarrassed — how to say it? But if you ask we have to say it. We have heard that God is a trinity: the Father, the Son and the Holy Ghost. We are three and he is also three, so we have made a small prayer of our own: ‘You are three, we are three: Have mercy on us!’ ”
The priest said, “What nonsense! Is this prayer? You fools, I will teach you the right prayer.” And he recited The Lord’s Prayer.
And those three poor people said, “Please repeat it once more, because we are uneducated, we may forget.”
He repeated it and they asked, “Once more — we are three, repeat it at least three times.” So he repeated it again, and then very happy, satisfied, he went back in his boat.
Just in the middle of the lake he was surprised, his boatman was surprised: those three poor people were coming running on the water! And they said, “Wait! Please one more time — we have forgotten the prayer!”
Now it was the turn of the priest to touch their feet, and he said, “Forget what I have said to you. Your prayer has been heard, my prayer has not been heard yet. You continue as you are continuing. I was utterly wrong to say anything to you. Forgive me!”


Moral: Many many ways to the truth - just because you've stumbled upon a small fraction - don't assume it to be the only version - and everyone else to be wrong.

Shams
nuseri
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Post by nuseri »

To ShamsB;Ya Ali Madad.

Where were you ?
I replied and the whole post got deleted.
A saying of Albert Einstein.

'true intelligence is imagination
and not knowledge'

Why he said that?
agakhani
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Post by agakhani »

Guys,
I have stories of great Socrates, Plato, confuseus, homar and even Hitler, Mussolini , are you interested in those stories?!

For me pir Shams, pir Sadardin, pir Hasan Kabirdin"s phylosophy as described in ginans are more important then those philosophers!

The Bottom line is you can find all those philosopher" s philosophy and their philosophical thoughts in ginans. period
Nuseri why don't you try that?

That Albert Eisenstein is in hell for inventing Atomic Bomb! Any question? Hitler had his own philosophy to kill innocent peoples and he did it USING GAS CHAMBERS! and killed thousands and thousand Nazis!

SOCRATES HAD TO KILLED HIMSELF! drinking poision, because his philosophy was hard to digest at his time! Galileo was considered as a lunatic person! because peoples of his time can not understand his thinking! Mansoor Al-Hallaz was hanged because he considered him shelf as God!!
Whom I write here and whom not?! but one thing is true that! they were not 100% God gifted persons they had some kind weaknesses as well, in contrast our pirs were 100% God gifted persons who had Ruhani powers ! So, start reading ginans and try to understand Pirs philosophies and that is the bottom line for everybody.
Last edited by agakhani on Sun Apr 26, 2015 9:37 am, edited 1 time in total.
nuseri
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Post by nuseri »

Ya Ali Madad.
It is interesting to know that ShamsB has called me as a friend another as a guy
and not as a brother in faith. God bless you'll.

It seem Agakhani is going ballistic with fancy word like bombs,missiles,private parts,etc
and shelling out his email add n fone numbers to meet n have fun with him.
I assume you n kmaherali read the same ginans.
As per one of your past post you said Allah is formless and just few month back kamaherali put the extract of ginan in which it says allah is formed of axz elements.

I feel a person would be more blessed in' understanding' even one spiritually rich ginan than just reading few hundreds of them as get the basics wrong.
One can assume if basic is wrong all that follows n build upon it also goes
wrong n it can also come crumbling down.
The farman was to UNDERSTAND the truth in Ginans,if that would have been there Imam would would have make farmans on those subjects.somebody interpreted that that ginans= farmans.

As you have gone ballistic you are mixing up(toxic) in reading and understanding.Mixing up the word 'noor' n 'bearer of noor' can even get a well read haqiqati on back foot by a cunning debater.
kmaherali
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Post by kmaherali »

nuseri wrote: As per one of your past post you said Allah is formless and just few month back kamaherali put the extract of ginan in which it says allah is formed of axz elements.
I don't recall having made a statement like that. Please provide the exact reference. It is not too difficult for someone familiar with this website to get this information.

What I might have said is that Allah manifests himself in various material forms to fulfil certain tasks and roles.
agakhani
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Location: TEXAS. U.S.A.

Post by agakhani »

Nuseri,

It was no intention to insult you or bro ShamsB using the word Guys! Shams is a great Khidmatgar.
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