Changes in the Ginans

Discussion on ginan meanings, history etc..
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star_munir
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Post by star_munir »

agakhani wrote:If I am not forgetting that Sultan Mohammad Shah made one farman on
DAS AVATAR; 10 INCARNATIONS (not exact texts of farman as SMS made but it was some like this):- every one should know about 10 incarnations and instructed to learn it as Islamic principals
in this farman Mowla insisted us to to know more about 10 incarnations if it has some thing wrong to know about Das avatar then he would not have made this farman'
Imam Hakim once declared himself in front ofcrowd that he is 10 incarnation!! where no Hindus were present in that crowd.

In my opinion it is nothing wrong to know more about 9 incarnations and for those readers who has interest to learn more about different religions then they should know 10 incarnations.
According to Karim Maherali, Once Mowlana Hazir Imam was being told by Alwaez Amlani (who was granted an audience with the Imam) that we are being accused of being Hindus because of the Ginanic references to Hindu ideas. To which Hazir Imam said that Moses is mentioned in Quran, Jesus is mentioned in Quran, and we do not become Jews or Christians as a result.
agakhani
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Post by agakhani »

Hindus do not worship 360 gods.
That may be right but if you study Hinduism then you find that Hindu religion have many Devi Devtas, their some devtas are not real but just made up by imagination like their " Santoshi Ma" never born on this earth but she is worshipped. 33 karor devtas are mentioned in Hindu scriptures and it is also quoted in our holy ginans as well.
Chalo man lete hai ki; not 360 but they have many devi devatas that is for sure, Hindu worshipping almost every things starting from snakes, trees, plants, sun, moon, fire and don't surprise even living human being!! they already made a temple of filmi star Amitabh Bacchan and some devotee worshipping him daily;even though he claimed that he is a just ordinary human being.
Hindu religion have three main devas 1, Brahma 2, Vishnu and 3, Mahesh the remaining are angels.
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Post by Admin »

To say that Amitabh Bhachan is recognised as a god by hinduism because some believe in him as such is far fetch. Krishan or Rama never stated that Amitabh Bachan has to be considered as a God. Nor did we read this in the Gita.

Gods in Hinduism are just forces of the nature, represented by symbols which may look human or not, it does not matter since all the gods (attributes) are iincorporate nside Krishna.

What you are saying is not different than a Hindu saying to other Hindu that there are 99 Gods in Islam and each are venerated by one or the other muslim under the name Khalak or raheman etc... this would be a ridicule concept isn't it. And Hindus may have called their angel of death as the Yumraj, some God of Death, so what is the difference. Don't Muslim have there own Angel of Death?

One should not consider as hinduism whatever hindus are writing about Hinduism, not more then one would consider as islam whatever Muslims are writing about their religion.
star_munir
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Post by star_munir »

Admin wrote:To say that Amitabh Bhachan is recognised as a god by hinduism because some believe in him as such is far fetch. Krishan or Rama never stated that Amitabh Bachan has to be considered as a God. Nor did we read this in the Gita.

Gods in Hinduism are just forces of the nature, represented by symbols which may look human or not, it does not matter since all the gods (attributes) are iincorporate nside Krishna.

What you are saying is not different than a Hindu saying to other Hindu that there are 99 Gods in Islam and each are venerated by one or the other muslim under the name Khalak or raheman etc... this would be a ridicule concept isn't it. And Hindus may have called their angel of death as the Yumraj, some God of Death, so what is the difference. Don't Muslim have there own Angel of Death?

One should not consider as hinduism whatever hindus are writing about Hinduism, not more then one would consider as islam whatever Muslims are writing about their religion.
Completely agree with you
agakhani
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Post by agakhani »

Admin,
You are mixing their (Hindu) deities with god even Hindus also believe that there is a only one God and he/she/it has no shape, it has no gender it is a just cosmic energy which is every where nobody can see it. But here in this thread we are talking about worshipping their different deities and it is not hidden that Hindus deities are many. I can count more than dozon.

About 99 God in Islam!!?? it really surprise me, be honest with you I never heard this sentence from any one else specially non Islamic buddy, whoever thing this way may be reffering about different names and attributes of Allah but in my opinion many peoples including Hindus also knows that considering more than one God in Islam is Shirk.

After studing Hinduism deeply and living almost 25 years in Hindu neighbourhood I found that Hindus are also consider some great living human being as a Devtas. if you read their religious literatures and studing Bhajans than you will definately find this word many times MANKHA DEV" "મનખા દેવ" MEANS "Human as a God". other words are Devatma, Punytma e.t.c which are also addressed to God and human being.
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Post by Admin »

I think Muslims are mistaken when they accuse others of shirk when they also do shirk everyday by associating attributes to he who is above all else and above attribute. is this not in a way bringing God down to the level of human understanding? If this is the case, what is the difference betweeen hindus and muslims.

What is their diference with indus who worship some stones, many muslims do the same.

Mera Shah ko hindu na buje, musalman na ...
zznoor
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Post by zznoor »

Admin wrote:I think Muslims are mistaken when they accuse others of shirk when they also do shirk everyday by associating attributes to he who is above all else and above attribute. is this not in a way bringing God down to the level of human understanding? If this is the case, what is the difference betweeen hindus and muslims.

What is their diference with indus who worship some stones, many muslims do the same.

Mera Shah ko hindu na buje, musalman na ...
As a plain Muslim I fail to understand what is wrong with saying Allah has 99 attribute, that does not mean 99 Gods.

For example

Ar-Rahman means "most compassionate, the beneficent, the gracious"
 
For relevant Ayas using this attribute see  Q1:3, 17:110, 19:58, 
21:112, 27:30, 36:52, 50:33, 55:1, 59:22, 78:38

And

Al-Aliyy, meaning  The Most High
(not Hz Ali RA as Admin once posted)
For relevant Ayas using this attribute see Q 2:255, 4:34, 31:30, 42:4, 42:51


Please google "99 names of Allah"'for meaning of other attributes.

Also go to Quran translation with  comments such as Md. Asad's to read meaning of Ayas listed.

99 attributes  definitely does not mean Muslims worship 99 Gods.
agakhani
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Post by agakhani »

99 attributes definitely does not mean Muslims worship 99 Gods.
Absolutely right, and I wrote my concern above, I repeting here " About 99 God in Islam!!?? it really surprise me, be honest with you I never heard this sentence from any one else specially non Islamic buddy, whoever thing this way may be reffering about different names and attributes of Allah but in my opinion many peoples including Hindus also knows that considering more than one God in Islam is Shirk.
What is their diference with indus who worship some stones, many muslims do the same.[/quote]

Admin,
You must be referring the 'Hazar e Aswad" a black stone in Kaaba , if yes then Muslim doesn't worship this stone but kiss it with respect because Prophet Mohammad also kissed it, in my opinion worshiping stone and kissing the stone with respect has big different ; kissing to stone is not shirk but as a Muslim worshiping stone is a deffinately shirk.
star_munir
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Post by star_munir »

Aga Khani, its not the case of black stone. Many Muslims go and visit the shrines and prostrate there and pray there. Again its not limited to shrines. There are idols of "ego, wealth, fame" which are venerated.
zznoor
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Post by zznoor »

.
Abu Ali missionary said our Pirs were not Hindus but Aal -e-Rasool,Aulad -e-Ali and Nabi so do you think they will make any mistakes? If you think so therefore it means you have not "imaan" i.e, faith in your religion.

Abu Ali missionary said Are you afraid of muslims [Non ismaili muslims] ?
Majority of Muslims of all colors and tarikas do not know about their religion.
To insunate that Only non Ismali Muslims do not know about their religion is wrong

To claim that all "Aal -e-Rasool,Aulad -e-Ali and Nabi" are infallible would be wrong too.

There are thousands of Muslims claiming to be from progeny of Prophet. They are not infallible.
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Post by Admin »

zznoor wrote:.
There are thousands of Muslims claiming to be from progeny of Prophet. They are not infallible.
For once we agree. on this sentense.

I would say, not all from the progeny of the Prophet are infaillible but the Infaillibles after the time of the Prophet are all from the progeny of the Prophet and of Hazrat Ali.

As for me the only infailible I know today is the Pir and Imam of Ismailis, Noor Mowlana Shah Karim.

I know this statement is not easy to digest for the Shariatis.
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Post by star_munir »

I have read minutes of Paris Conference as now they are available in heritage website. It mentions about categorization of Ginans and it publications. There is no guidance of publishing Ginans with Hindu elements mentioned there. So it appears, that such Ginans are not made available to jamat for recitation because of that reason. Also there were points related to sending Farmans to Imam for approval and seeking guidance regarding their publication.
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Post by Admin »

There was a big debate on the matter between the Ismailia Association of that time as the Instructions of Hazar Imam at Paris Conference (1975) were mis-represented.

It was obvious that those who wanted the disappearance of the Ginans were drumming that the Indian vocabulary used in Ginans were "Hindu" elements. The condition that the Imam posed for any work to be identified as having "Hindu" elements was that after All Ismailia Association (now ITREB) agreed unanimously to this, the work should have been brought to the Imam for verification of the proposition. Something that the opponent of Ginans did not want to accept.

There were subsequent Conferences and Workshops where the Ginan subject was clarified. When I get the time, I will scan and put here the report by the Ismailia Association for Canada which will be very enlightening as to what Hazar Imam really said for the Paris Conference ans in particular that if anyone who thinks there were Hindu elements in Ginans, the Imam wanted to know why they were thinking that way and how they were defining "Hindu" elements.

Thanks for your patience.
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Post by star_munir »

Thank you very much admin for clarifications. I will wait to see the report by Ismailia Association for Canada. Thanks a lot
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Post by agakhani »

Something that the opponent of Ginans did not want to accept.
I will love to know what Hazar Imam says about our wonderful ginans and the Hindu elements!

It is true that many Ismailis who think this way i.e. our ginas contains Hindu elements names of Hindu Devi Devtas and ginans are old e.t.c. therefore there is no need ginans at current time !! however their thinking is wrong, because they have not studied ginans deeply. but let me ask those peoples including some in this forum; SUN IS ALSO OLD I MEAN LOT MORE OLD THEN OUR GINANS WHY AREN'T YOU REFUSE TO TAKE ITS LIGHTS? SUN IS ALSO WAY OLD!! AND REFUSE TO ACCEPT OUR GINANS BECAUSE IT IS OLD?
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Post by Admin »

Not to forget that the Farman of the present Imam says Ginans have to be kept for generations to come.
nuseri
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Post by nuseri »

Ya Ali Madad.
In a Taraqati frame work of Imamat.All acts and direction by a board having any consequence is fully vetted by MHI and under his guidance n direction.
If any changes are there it is healthy for the Jamat.
Just because of many who may have passion for the quantity(not quality) of Ginans dislike the board and it member but like MHI.
It is same like liking Rasulillah not liking ALI in spite of verbal declaration.
Then what is the difference between a doomed Shariati n rebel or annoyed Tariqati.

Firstly we have to study the period ,time n circumstances how the Pirs
inspired the local people in those times.

What elements went into their Sufi compositions presently called as Ginans.
Many Ginan which are not inspiring faith at desired level but sound like religious stories n philosophy needed to re looked at present times.

What Nasir Khusraw did was he wrote his academics n philosophy seperately and wrote short Qasidas inspiring Faith few of them separately.

He had a fine secular education back ground before he started preaching.

I remember an incident when a late Alwaez in Andheri jamatkhana said
on his reservations of changes in Ginans.

He said if the word' Hari 'kept in original form instead of Ali.
He said in urdu/hindi. " kya unko kutte (dogs)will to bite them.

He was aiming at the board/association ,but directly n vocally refuse to accept MHI strict guidance/order.

Same sentiments ( dharmik bhavna n not Imaan) is there in members who cherish his memories n advocate for Ginans with Zahiri understanding.( shallow or deep).

Somebody has earlier posted that many sects are still there of earlier may be Khojas who got attached to our Pirs n their memories.

Noorani mandate for Pir's N Dai's was to inspire then to Follow Imam of the time and not follow them in toto.

Please differentiate when MHI uses the word Tariqa and precisely the
word "traditions'.
Tariqa is to be followed n traditions is to up holded.

All the Sufi material is like variety of quality starter in a Lavish meal spread.
It is like an interim syllabus to reach the Farmans n move forward with them.

What Ginans visavis other Material of Traditions MHI know best.
For us it is just one n one word 'Aamin' and no unwarranted debate.
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Post by Admin »

One should not speak of subjects that one does not understand. And please stop attributing sentences to the Imam when He has not said anything of that sort.

The time where people blindly believed anything that someone said if he added "Imam said this and that", is gone since a long long time. Changing "Hari" in "Ali" is a fallacy from the realm of propaganda, it has nothing to do with Imam's guidance.

And I hope you can see the stupidity of replacing "Ali rupe Hari awyia" (God came as Ali) by "Ali rupe Ali awiya" (Ali came as Ali")
nuseri
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Post by nuseri »

Ya Ali Madad

Please leave it to MHI his prerogative in matters of Tariqat .
Try to understand the value n weight age of tradition material
and our Tariqa.
Has anybody done a 360 degrees analysis of Ginans n Pirantan activity
around 700 years back ?
We are living in year 2013.
Ours is dynamic n living faith.
So modifications of any syllabus is can b ongoing process for any excellence is to be achieved.

Sometime I feel this website is deeply attached to Waez's and conviction
(100% Zahiri) of that person.

Ginan Qasidas etc by Pir's are supplementary in our Tariqa.

As I have tried to make it simple by comparing to starters in a lavish meal.
Farmans being the main course.

Suppose in a region 5 starters served all fried ones and owner removes
2 heavy fried ones from it and add one more with Baked dry fruits starter from other region to make
the meal more healthy and appealing.(5-2+1=4) (lesser cholesterol)

In a meal of many courses one does not go GaGa over starters n some
over starting course of Salads.
I am keeping myself on hold for saying more on Ginans as few matured bloggers carry overt Dharmik Bhavna (religious sentiments) for it.
BTW.
Recently I explained by lavish meal comparison theory to senior Bhagats in Gujarati n hindi mix in my JK.They complimented me and told me that I should tell the whole Jamaat over the mike.

Ginan ni rajniti/politics bandh karo anee

ALI BOLO ALI BOLO MUNIWAR BHAIYEE.

please somebody complete this verse with next two lines
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Post by Admin »

We are not going to subscribed to your views on Ginans. Your views are completely disconnected from Hazar Imam's Farmans on Ginans and the Ismaili understanding of the Status of Hujjat ul Imam, Pir.

Our Present Pir according to the same Will of Sultan Muhammad Shah is Mowlana Shah Karim. He is the Pir of ALL Ismailis according to the same will. Some accept him as such, some compare him to Dai's of the past.


Lets agree to disagree, you have come again and again since a long time to try unsuccessfully to discredit Ismaili Pirs and their Ginans. Put an end to this game. One does not become "Nuseri" by calling himself with such a name.

If Ali is central to your belief, He is also central to the beliefs of Satpanthi Ismailis and our Ginans.

If you do not know that Satpanth and Sirat al Mustakeem is the same, there is nothing much we can do about it.

This is not the place to insult Ismaili Ginans, there are other Fora more appropriate for this.
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Post by star_munir »

Ginans are wonderful and unique heritage. But when I read minutes of Paris Conference, all ginans were classified into three categories. It does not talk about publication of ginans in third category at all ! But it talks about sending compilation of all such ginans at IIS.

As for Pakistan, it is still understandable that the prevailing atmosphere of orthodoxy could be the reason of not having such Ginans. In Pak, religious extremism has taken deep roots. But in secular country of India, the condition is totally opposite. Despite of all freedom, still there is more restriction for such Ginans in India.

I would however like to know whether in Canda or in African countries is there still recitation of Ginans with theme of das avatars or not?

Paris Conference minutes also talk about sending transcript of Farmans to Imam for approval and seeking His guidance for publication. Although Farman is Farman as soon as Imam speaks it. Some time back I had a talk with an alwaez working in Tariqa board. I asked him why Golden Jubilee Farmans are still not published. He replied me before blaming tariqa board, tell me is there any other tariqa board in the world which has published it? The reason is simply they are not authorized to publish it. However, Farman are made available in JK but they have not got guidance regarding publishing it.
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Post by a_27826 »

Admin wrote:please stop attributing sentences to the Imam when He has not said anything of that sort.

The time where people blindly believed anything that someone said if he added "Imam said this and that", is gone since a long long time.
If i am not wrong, Ismailism is all about Imams and their firmans.

But you are not allowing firmans to be posted here and hence "Imam said this and that"

How are we going to discuss any thing about our faith without quoting Imam's firmans ?

Is it because you are not legally allowed to allow firmans to be posted ?

Or you support the theory that since firmans are for Ismails only, so non Ismailis should not have access to them ?
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Post by Admin »

Yes Ismailism is about Farmans. I would say there is no Ismailism without Farmans. Farman-bardari [Following the Farmans] make the difference between been an Ismaili or a not being an Ismaili. People who block Ismailis from having Farmans are either idiots or enemies of the Imam. farmans are made to be known and followed.

I am not against posting on the web one sentence from a Farman if it is a general Farman. In fact when the Imam makes a general Farman where so many people have gather, all of the various government agencies are taping the Farmans and they are not Ismailis, whichever the country the Farman is made in. And in some countries, it is easier to get a copy from some corrupt gov. clerk than from ITREB. Indeed it would be unwise to think that governments of various countries do not wish to know what the Imam say to his Murids as this would affect them perhaps. They penetrate the hall (electronically of otherwise) and many time you would notice a van nearby with antennas. Just go see them after Didar. You would be surprised of what they can give you...

But Ismailis are the people to whom Farmans are made so let the the Farmans remain between themselves, in their houses, not on a public space like the www.

That is one reason I would never feel comfortable having Farmans other than general, even short sentences here. Let us discuss public knowledge here. What is for the field of personal search deep into the world of your soul has to remain between the Imam and his Murid.

I agree that this approach handicaps the discussion. Myself I am in that situation many time where there are very clear Farmans that I know of, of which I have listened the tape or of which I have attended and heard personally but I can not quote here though people put pressure on me to quote them. Sometimes you have to trust people. If you know someone is generally well informed on a subject such as Farmans, you will have to trust. If not, there will be plenty of opportunities in life to find the truth or even one day to ask the Imam.

For example since many years I have a question in my mind about a typo in some old farmans transcript made in East Africa about Ikhwan al Sufi and Ikhwan al Safa. I am waiting since 1974 to ask this question to the Imam directly. One day, I know, I will have that opportunity.
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Post by a_27826 »

Admin wrote:Yes Ismailism is about Farmans. I would say there is no Ismailism without Farmans. Farman-bardari [Following the Farmans] make the difference between been an Ismaili or a not being an Ismaili. People who block Ismailis from having Farmans are either idiots or enemies of the Imam. farmans are made to be known and followed.

I am not against posting on the web one sentence from a Farman if it is a general Farman. In fact when the Imam makes a general Farman where so many people have gather, all of the various government agencies are taping the Farmans and they are not Ismailis, whichever the country the Farman is made in. And in some countries, it is easier to get a copy from some corrupt gov. clerk than from ITREB. Indeed it would be unwise to think that governments of various countries do not wish to know what the Imam say to his Murids as this would affect them perhaps. They penetrate the hall (electronically of otherwise) and many time you would notice a van nearby with antennas. Just go see them after Didar. You would be surprised of what they can give you...

But Ismailis are the people to whom Farmans are made so let the the Farmans remain between themselves, in their houses, not on a public space like the www.

That is one reason I would never feel comfortable having Farmans other than general, even short sentences here. Let us discuss public knowledge here. What is for the field of personal search deep into the world of your soul has to remain between the Imam and his Murid.

I agree that this approach handicaps the discussion. Myself I am in that situation many time where there are very clear Farmans that I know of, of which I have listened the tape or of which I have attended and heard personally but I can not quote here though people put pressure on me to quote them. Sometimes you have to trust people. If you know someone is generally well informed on a subject such as Farmans, you will have to trust. If not, there will be plenty of opportunities in life to find the truth or even one day to ask the Imam.

For example since many years I have a question in my mind about a typo in some old farmans transcript made in East Africa about Ikhwan al Sufi and Ikhwan al Safa. I am waiting since 1974 to ask this question to the Imam directly. One day, I know, I will have that opportunity.
Why I asked this because its easy for enemies to know what Imam said than the followers of the Imam.

Akber Merally website has published the Word (Isme Azam/bol) given by the Imam to his BK members.

NOTE:

I am not implying the "Word" should be published here, but just worried about the guidance through farmans are unnecessarily not reaching enough to the ismailis through text.

In JK, Mukhi saheb decides which firmans to be recited.

On individual basis I can not study all the firmans.
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Post by agakhani »

As long as USA concerned no bro, das avtar ginan is not recited in Jk matter of fact maNY Ismaili do not belive in 10 incarnations but in Texas I found many they are accepting das avtar theory.
By the way I already wrote about Nuseri that he does not belive in ginans and our piratan concept at all. It is very sad for him if he claims his self as an ismali. Do not you belive this?! then you have to go long way bit read his very first post! sorry for spelling mistakes becauze I am using my cell phone, Munir.
One more thing that I have observed that he has some kind of mentally distribution or phonological distributions. I hope and wish he does not have this but this is my inner feeling that he has some kind of this illness I hope I am wrong but his all posts tells about this and that is the only one reason I do not read his any post lately. Do not hou believe this? Then go back and read what Admin wrote about him!?
Last edited by agakhani on Thu Dec 26, 2013 5:12 pm, edited 1 time in total.
nuseri
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Post by nuseri »

To Agakhani:Ya Ali Madad.
You would be better off with Farmans of MHI said in our period of livng for next few decades n centuries (FOLLOW THE TARIQA) rather than get emotionally n academically attached to material of traditions( supplementory interim material) 700 years old.Altough it is very much valid
in essence if baatin is understood of It(IT IS NOT OVER N ABOVE THE FARMANS).
Your is simple open n shut case of 'grapes are sour'.
when a person make analysis that does not mean he is against that material but advocating it be less in quantity and selective quality to speed up inspiration from it.Times have changed.
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Post by star_munir »

Ya Ali Madad, thanks for letting me know about U.S. In U.S.A I think mostly jamat comprises of Indians and Pakistanis and in India and Pakistan such Ginans are not recited. In India, even recitation of Chogadia on Thursday is no more in practice. I would like to know about Canada and African countries. I had seen one Ginan book published in Africa, where Ginans were written unedited. But that was old book. I would like to know whether are they still reading/reciting the Ginans with exact same words or the one which were edited.
As for Nuseri..you are right that quality matters but quantity matters alot too. Being selective in approach would mean limiting the knowledge.
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Post by Admin »

Some people have problems with Ginans written 800 years ago by the Imam Mustawda but the same people do not have problems with Qasidas written a thousands years ago by some Dai's.

The fact remains that the Ginan tradition expands from the Declaration of Qiyamah in Alamut. A Farman to all beings of the Universe, that did not exist in that form a thousand years ago and though we also respect some of the Dai's converted to Ismailism from their Ithnashri birth religion, we also realise that these Dai's could not and never did inspire themselves from the Declaration of Mowlana Hassan Alazikrihis-Salam which came much later, in 1164.

Now if these Dai's would have been able to cover more ground on Ismailism and expand and inspire themselves from Mowlana Hakim's Declaration of His own tenth Manifestation on Earth, that would have been of importance to bridge the gap.

Now obviously we give more importance to those dai's that had access to other Declaration of Imamat such as those contained in the Khutbat al Bayyan, The Khutbat al Tatanjiyah of Hazrat Ali or the Ummul Kitab of Imam Muhammad Baqir.

We also give importance to works other than Ginans when they are written by our "Imam Mustawda", our "Pirs" such as the book of Pir Shabuddin Shah recommended by Mowlana Sultan Muhammad Shah.

And again Farmans are our Pirs as they come from the Light of the Imam. Farmans such as "Pir" Pandiyat Jawanmardi ;-)
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Post by nuseri »

To Admin:Ya Ali Madad.

(aap kabhi moula ali madad bologe? .Aap to uksi shayad zarurat nahi ,kyoki moti moti kitab jo hai aap ke paas)

I will take two of your postings
1.You seem to vent your frustration and almost lodge a protest note for the board or concerned leaders.
Please note in current times every word or act of MHI can have reaction
as does his legitimate signatures on the Farmans.
As almost all of are Jamaat are in Zahiri frame of toughts so all haqiqati
words n act are desired by us from the Imam at Tariqat level.
I also do feel that many farman I need to study more is not avbl to me.
The board within best of their ability is having material avbl for readings
in JK.
I do also have question to IIS who is spending millions of pounds on research on what Sufi of the past wrote n undermining the that sufism
is very much alive even in present Imam's time.
you also face similar handicap in maintaining your website.on what
is to published n what is to be deleted.
If you are true Momin speak to him in your heart.
ALI does what he desires,he has sent me to your site rather than IIS.

As for your posting on Dai etc.

To whom did MHI said as Foremost thinkers amongst Ismailis.
Back ground is less important in preaching but education love n ability
to receive Noorani Hidayat and express n inspire the masses then.
His strategy was different and is reflected in many many millions holding
thier Faith since last 1000 years in poverty n no direct contact n vision
of Imam at Zahiri level.
Have you closely studied the Diawat n Pirantan actvity of different

stalwarts.The Dai did not established strict monetary obligations,whilst
Pir wrote length n length on it and increased by 25% in poor regions of India. He knew that Imam and his directions would take over on that issue.
Did you observed the back ground of Salman Faras N Nasir Khusraw.
They were both Marfati momins n came from Farsi background one as
Zorastrian n one as 12er.( any matching done thru their dates)

One would never know it is was soul of Salman re lived to serve again at that great magnitude.

Sufi with Noorani Hidayat do need any periodic or landmark sermons
to follow or uphold they are as living Farmans in eyes of Ali at Marifat level.

Even in recent times is the likes of Corbin n Anne Marie Schimel have done Baatin Interpretation of Ismaili works.as they understood the Baatin

While we Ismails are are still looking Imam at Zahiri level and trying to
find exotic arabic word that a entity par excellence should have known before preaching.

AAP TO ABUALI KI AUDIO CASSETE KE CHAKKAR ME KHUD GHAN CHAKKAR
BAN GAYE HO.
Admin
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Post by Admin »

I have no clue what is the reference to Abuali in your post. he was a great missionary and a great Dai.

He was not infallible and I agreed with him on many issues and I also disagreed with many issues. He was not my mentor.

Why bring him into the discussion all the time. I can't understand why he is so disturbing to you nor do I think think anyone here is interested in your understanding (or lack of it) of what Abuali said or thought. let him rest in peace.
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