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www.ismaili.net :: View topic - Changings in ginan
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Changings in ginan
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ZAly



Joined: 12 Jul 2006
Posts: 14

PostPosted: Sun Oct 08, 2006 11:03 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

YAM

Can someone from Karachi please give me the email address of Alwaez Kamaluddin or Alwaeza Kamaluddin.

I am making a writeup on Momin Chetamani and would like to discuss and understand. I think Momin Chetamani beautifully describes the concept of Imamat, Creation, Evolution, basically all that our religion is based up.

Would be grateful if someone can help me with this and also get me the email address.
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Aamir19



Joined: 20 Oct 2006
Posts: 10

PostPosted: Sun Nov 12, 2006 10:36 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

<P>YAM, <BR>Hi, how are you, I read your message regarding e-mail address of Al-waz Kamalludin.<BR>you contact "Tariqa &amp; Religious Education Board Karachi" they are help you.<BR><BR>thanks &amp; regards</P>
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dchandani



Joined: 03 Aug 2006
Posts: 26

PostPosted: Wed Feb 14, 2007 8:12 am    Post subject: ginans /email adress for alvaez Reply with quote

alvaez Kamaludin's email adress is
zarkamal@cyber.net.pk
i hope this helps
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star_munir



Joined: 21 Apr 2003
Posts: 1666

PostPosted: Mon Apr 30, 2007 4:46 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

If you would like, then you may also discuss the verses here.
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samirnoorali



Joined: 26 Dec 2008
Posts: 61

PostPosted: Wed Jun 24, 2009 10:27 pm    Post subject: Uniting to Defend the Pir and Ginans Reply with quote

Dear Members:

I was very happy to see so many individuals who defended the Pirs and the Ginans from people who wish to change them. I am particularly happy to see that we will stand up for the Pir and maintain that his words are to be left alone in its original form. The importance of that is already given by numerous examples which you have all presented.

As times change the literature fades away, but you have all proven that even though times have changed that doesnít mean we have a right to change words that donít belong to us. If we changed the words of the Quran from:

Oh you who believe, obey Allah, and obey the Prophet, and the holders of authority from amongst you.

To

Oh you who believe, obey Allah, and obey the Prophet, and the Imams who are the people of the house.

Imagine then how Muslims from other sects would react? Imagine printing it and saying that this is far closer to our interpretation of the faith. Even though we would consider that closer to what we interpret the line to be, no orthodox Muslim would agree. Therefore reverse the situation and wonder how a follower of the Pir would feel if one changed the words of the ginans? They would feel exactly the same way.

Well then as many of you put it, the Pir is the successor of the Prophet, and so we are respecting him. At present, Karim is the Pir for all Ismailis.

Keep united in this matter because it is very important for the future. Never bend to those people who say that the ginans were conversion tools, that they contain Hindu elements, because for those of you who are well versed in ginans you will attest that the Pirs introduced concepts that are unique from Islam and Hinduism. No Hindu follows the manifestations of Aaron, Simon Peter, and Abu Talib. Nor do Sunnis accept Ali Allah. We see the Pirís interpretation of history as far more Islamic than what other sects interpret it to be. It is not that other schools of thought are right and we are catching up, but rather we are right and they are catching up.

So therefore these teaching conform to a unique blend of the pre-Islamic presence of Allah and the Islamic presence of Allah. In other words, the Pir has looked over history of many cultures and brought to us the linkages. These linkages bind Judaism, Christianity, and Islam.

And Iím happy to see individuals in this forum stand up and say we are not afraid. We are not afraid of other people and their opinions. We are completely confident in our own teachings and that we can teach others rather than they teach us.

I think that diversity in our jamat is our greatest strength. Ismailis from Afghanistan, Syria, India, Pakistan, United States, Canada, UK, Asia, and elsewhere may speak different languages, come with different traditions, but at the end of the day we should love each other as equals under one faith. We should be open to one another and share our traditions and learn each otherís ways.

Now sometimes there is confusion between missionaries and Pirs. Look at the list of Pirs:

1. Pir Mohammad (the Prophet Mohammad)
2. Pir Hasan (grandson to the Prophet Mohammad)
3. Pir Kasam Shah
4. Pir Jafar Shah
5. Pir Zain ul Abadin
6. Pir Amir Ahmad
7. Pir Noordin (Satgur Noor)
8. Pir Indra Imammadin
9. Pir Mohammad Mansur
10. Pir Galabdin
11. Pir Abdul Majid
12. Pir Mustansirbillah
13. Pir Ahmad Hadi
14. Pir Hasham Shah
15. Pir Mohammad Shah
16. Pir Mahmud Shah
17. Pir Mohobdin
18. Pir Khalaqdin
19. Pir Abdul Mominin
20. Pir Islamdin
21. Pir Salehdin
22. Pir Salahdin
23. Pir Shamsdin
24. Pir Nasirdin
25. Pir Shahabudin
26. Pir Sadardin
27. Pir Hasan Kabirdin
28. Pir Tajdin
29. Pir Mustansirbillah (Pir Pandiyate Jawanmardi)
30. Pir Haidar Ali
31. Pir Aladdin
32. Pir Kasam Shah
33. Pir Nasir Mohammad
34. Pir Baba Aga Hasam Shah
35. Pir Mohammad Zaman
36. Pir Aga Aziz
37. Pir Mehrab Beg
38. Pir Ali Akbar Beg
39. Pir Aga Ali Asgar Beg
40. Pir Mirza Shah Hasan Ali
41. Pir Mirza Shah Kasam Ali
42. Pir Aga Shah Abul Hasan Ali
43. Pir Mirza Mohammad Bakir
44. Pir Sarkar Mata Salamat
45. Pir Aga Shah Hasan Ali
46. Pir Aga Shah Ali Shah Datar
47. Pir Aga Shah Khalillah
48. Pir Abul Hasan Shah
49. Pir Sultan Mohammad Shah
50. Pir Karim


This lineage shows that the current Pir is present in this world. So when we unite together we are not only considering Karim as Imam, but also as a Pir. This is very important. Without this understanding many individuals will feel it is perfectly fine to change the words of the ginans. But having seen your strong faith in the Pir on this forum, I am certain that you will continue to protect that which is dear to our history.

Let me once again say that Pirs are not the exclusive property of Khojas. That is not the case. Pirs are for every Ismaili, whether they be Afghani, Syrian, Arab, Asian, or European, etc.

There can be many missionaries in the world, but the Pir is unique. He is the manifestation of the Prophet. Remember the teachings of our forefathers. They taught us that Ali, Mohammad, and Allah are part of the same Noor. The same essence.

Keep up the good work, because this website, ismaili.net, had done a wonderful job preserving khojki text. It is unique, as no other website has come close over the years to provide us with such valuable information.
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KhojaIsmaili



Joined: 24 Jun 2009
Posts: 22

PostPosted: Thu Jun 25, 2009 5:31 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

samirnoorali, I don't see Pir Sabzaali on the list. Was he not our Pir? Please clarify.
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kmaherali



Joined: 27 Mar 2003
Posts: 9948

PostPosted: Thu Jun 25, 2009 6:03 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

KhojaIsmaili wrote:
samirnoorali, I don't see Pir Sabzaali on the list. Was he not our Pir? Please clarify.
There has been discussion on the status of Pir Subzali at:

Doctrines --> Pir and Prophet

http://www.ismaili.net/html/modules.php?op=modload&name=phpBB2&file=viewtopic&t=651&start=0
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agakhani



Joined: 07 May 2008
Posts: 1704
Location: TEXAS. U.S.A.

PostPosted: Fri Jun 26, 2009 6:03 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

KhojaIsmaili wrote:
samirnoorali, I don't see Pir Sabzaali on the list. Was he not our Pir? Please clarify.

Samir,
There is a link about Pir Sabzaali in Ismaili.net, but let me tell you this in short here that pirs should be from "AHLE-BAIT"(Prophet Mohammed and Hazarat Ali') family and the title of pir should be granted from the Imam, for a example Pir Imamdin was not official pir but he was SAYED who wrote a great,valubale ginan " NAKALANKI GITA' and many more ginans.
Pir Sabzaali and pir Ismail Gangaji received pirs title after their death.
Nasir Khusaru and other great Ismaili dai were not from Ahle-Bait so we can not consider them as our Ismaili pirs.
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ShamsB



Joined: 04 Aug 2004
Posts: 1067

PostPosted: Fri Jun 26, 2009 7:36 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

agakhani wrote:
KhojaIsmaili wrote:
samirnoorali, I don't see Pir Sabzaali on the list. Was he not our Pir? Please clarify.

Samir,
There is a link about Pir Sabzaali in Ismaili.net, but let me tell you this in short here that pirs should be from "AHLE-BAIT"(Prophet Mohammed and Hazarat Ali') family and the title of pir should be granted from the Imam, for a example Pir Imamdin was not official pir but he was SAYED who wrote a great,valubale ginan " NAKALANKI GITA' and many more ginans.
Pir Sabzaali and pir Ismail Gangaji received pirs title after their death.
Nasir Khusaru and other great Ismaili dai were not from Ahle-Bait so we can not consider them as our Ismaili pirs.



It becomes easier if we use the arabic terms - Imam Mustawada for Pirs that are from Ahle Bayt and Pirs for titular pirs.
Imam Mustawadas (Pir Hasan, Pir Shams, Pir Satgur Noor etc) - who are living pirs - can only be from Ahle Bayt. Posthumous or Titular Pirs - are not Imam Mustawada.

Shams
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TheMaw



Joined: 14 Feb 2009
Posts: 106

PostPosted: Sat Jun 27, 2009 6:57 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

ShamsB wrote:
It becomes easier if we use the arabic terms - Imam Mustawada for Pirs that are from Ahle Bayt and Pirs for titular pirs.
Mustawda "one who is entrusted with something" refers to those who are accorded the rank of imam but cannot pass it on to their decendants. This is why Hassan was al-Imam al-Mustawda and Hussayn was al-Imam al-Mustaqar (in whom the Imamate is resident, rather than entrusted).

Pir is used by Khojas for a Mustawda; Mustaqar is Shah or Hujjat ("proof").


Last edited by TheMaw on Sat Jun 27, 2009 7:27 pm, edited 1 time in total
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ShamsB



Joined: 04 Aug 2004
Posts: 1067

PostPosted: Sat Jun 27, 2009 9:47 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

[quote="TheMaw"][quote="ShamsB"]
agakhani wrote:
KhojaIsmaili wrote:
samirnoorali, It becomes easier if we use the arabic terms - Imam Mustawada for Pirs that are from Ahle Bayt and Pirs for titular pirs.
Mustawda "one who is entrusted with something" refers to those who are accorded the rank of imam but cannot pass it on to their decendants. This is why Hassan was al-Imam al-Mustawda and Hussayn was al-Imam al-Mustaqar (in whom the Imamate is resident, rather than entrusted).

Pir is used by Khojas for a Mustawda; Mustaqar is Shah or Hujjat ("proof").



Thank you..hopefully this helps clear the air between the Khojas and the rest of Ismailies when it comes to Nasir Khusraw and Pir Sadardeen and Pir Shams etc.

Shams
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TheMaw



Joined: 14 Feb 2009
Posts: 106

PostPosted: Sat Jun 27, 2009 7:40 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

ShamsB wrote:
Thank you..hopefully this helps clear the air between the Khojas and the rest of Ismailies when it comes to Nasir Khusraw and Pir Sadardeen and Pir Shams etc.
I actually don't know what the statuses of Pir Sadruddin and Shams were. Pir is the Persian word that is the same as "shaykh" in Arabic: it means "Old Man", but respectfully. Nasir Khusraw, for example, was a "pir" but his actual rank in the Ismaili da3wah was first Missionary and then Chief Missionary to Khurasan. He was never equal to Husayn...

In the case of Pir Sadruddin and Pir Shams, I believe they were also high-ranking Missionary (da'i) but not Imam. Shams was sent - I believe by Imam Qasimshah - as a Missionary and so was Sadruddin.

This is no disrespect to any of the above figures. They were crucial and brilliant - Nizari saints, you could say. But they weren't Imams: here PIR means "Elder", not "Imam". Imams are members of the Ahl al-Bayt of rank, and most of them are Mustaqar. The names of most Mustawda Imams have not been recorded in our du'a, for example, and there are many who are only known through scholarship from the Middle Ages: siblings of the Mustaqar, usually.
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ShamsB



Joined: 04 Aug 2004
Posts: 1067

PostPosted: Sun Jun 28, 2009 4:07 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

TheMaw wrote:
ShamsB wrote:
Thank you..hopefully this helps clear the air between the Khojas and the rest of Ismailies when it comes to Nasir Khusraw and Pir Sadardeen and Pir Shams etc.
I actually don't know what the statuses of Pir Sadruddin and Shams were. Pir is the Persian word that is the same as "shaykh" in Arabic: it means "Old Man", but respectfully. Nasir Khusraw, for example, was a "pir" but his actual rank in the Ismaili da3wah was first Missionary and then Chief Missionary to Khurasan. He was never equal to Husayn...

In the case of Pir Sadruddin and Pir Shams, I believe they were also high-ranking Missionary (da'i) but not Imam. Shams was sent - I believe by Imam Qasimshah - as a Missionary and so was Sadruddin.

This is no disrespect to any of the above figures. They were crucial and brilliant - Nizari saints, you could say. But they weren't Imams: here PIR means "Elder", not "Imam". Imams are members of the Ahl al-Bayt of rank, and most of them are Mustaqar. The names of most Mustawda Imams have not been recorded in our du'a, for example, and there are many who are only known through scholarship from the Middle Ages: siblings of the Mustaqar, usually.


Actually Pir Shams and his great(correct me here Kmaherali) grandson Pir Sadardeen and his sons Pir Hasan Kabirdeen and Pir Tajdin were Imam Mustawada - as per our old dua and the farmans of the Imams. I believe someone has published a list of all 50 pirs upto Hazar Imam in the previous postings. And all of them were Ahle Bayt - they did descend from the Holy Prophet being lineal offspring of Imam Jafar As Sadiq.
If you take a look at all the 50 pirs - with the exception of Pir Pandiyat E Jawan Mardi - (which was the book of Farmans oF Imam Mustan SirBillah II) - all the other 49 pirs were Ahle Bayt - even Pir Bibi Sarkar Maryam Khatun - the wife of Imam Khalliulah II, and the mother of Imam Aga Hassanali Shah was Ahle Bayt being the daughter of Imam Khallulah's paternal uncle.
In his will Imam Sultan Mohammed Shah appointed Shah Karim as the Imam and the Pir.
My statement just alluded to saying maybe if we start using the older arabic terminology for these figures we can maybe reduce the confusion and friction amongst the different traditions. Pir means 2 different things to different groups of folks and it is becoming a source of consternation.

Shams
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kmaherali



Joined: 27 Mar 2003
Posts: 9948

PostPosted: Sun Jun 28, 2009 5:05 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

TheMaw wrote:
In the case of Pir Sadruddin and Pir Shams, I believe they were also high-ranking Missionary (da'i) but not Imam. Shams was sent - I believe by Imam Qasimshah - as a Missionary and so was Sadruddin.

This is no disrespect to any of the above figures. They were crucial and brilliant - Nizari saints, you could say. But they weren't Imams: here PIR means "Elder", not "Imam". Imams are members of the Ahl al-Bayt of rank, and most of them are Mustaqar. The names of most Mustawda Imams have not been recorded in our du'a, for example, and there are many who are only known through scholarship from the Middle Ages: siblings of the Mustaqar, usually.


The rank of the appointed Pir is equivalent to that of Prophet Muhammad. All the Pirs are Ahl al-Bayt (descendants of the Prophet). They are the bearers of the Noor just as the Prophet. In our previous Du'a, we also recited the names of our Pirs. MHI at present is both the Imam and the Pir.

More on this at:

Doctrines --> Pir and Prophet

http://www.ismaili.net/html/modules.php?op=modload&name=phpBB2&file=viewtopic&t=651&start=0
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agakhani



Joined: 07 May 2008
Posts: 1704
Location: TEXAS. U.S.A.

PostPosted: Sun Jun 28, 2009 5:19 am    Post subject: let make it clear. Reply with quote

It seems to me, this topic getting in confusion aproach . below are some clerification from me:-
1, Pir and Imam are two different authorities.
2, Both should be from AHLE-BAIT family.
3, Both should be present on earth all the time.
4, Pirs always appointed by Imam of the time.
5, There were some pirs in past who were not granted "PIRATAN" from
Imam of their time but their Ginans are still spoken in Jamat Khanas.
These type pirs usally call SYED.
6, During the time of Imam Mustansiribillah and after Pir Tajdin a book
name "PANDIYATE JAWAMARDI" written by Imam Mustansiribillah was
Ismaili pir.
7, PIR is persian word and it means, old respectable/reputable person.
8. There is no 'Pir' word in Arabic language, because there is no " P" letter
in Arabic alphabet. You can use Al-Mustwad instead of Pir.
9, In Khoja tradition they believe that pir is apeareance from Lord
Brahma, and Imam's apeareace is from Lord Vishnu. There are too
many Ginans on this topic in Gujarati, Khojki and other Indo languages
for above reference.
10,Pir Sabzali and Mukhi Ismail Gangji received pir title after their death.
but they both were not form AHLE-Bait family, they received Pir title
because of their excellent Khidmat of Jamat and Imam.
11, There are big differences between QASIDA and GINANS.Ginans cover
almost all the fields and are loded with RUHANIAYAT, Qasida is Praise
of Allah.
12, There is a book in gujarati language which is now available ''PIR
PADHARYA AAPNE DWAR" written by wellknown missionary ALIBHAI
NANJI. In this book you can find history of our 50 pirs, list of the
ginans written by each pirs, their year of birth death. MOZIZA e.t.c. I
would recommend every one who know Gujarati, must have this book
in their library.
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