FranÁais  |  Mission  |  About us  |  Disclaimer  |  Contact  |  What's new  |  FAQ  |  Search  | 

Welcome to The Heritage Web Site

-->
MY HERITAGE
New Heritage
Main Page
New Account
Set as Homepage
My Account
Logout
GOLDEN JUBILEE
Statistics
DIDARS
COMMUNICATE
Forums
Guestbook
Members List
Recommend Us
NEWS
Timelines
Ismaili History
Today in History
LEARN
Library
Youth's Corner
Ginans
FAIR
Gallery
Photo Album
Others


www.ismaili.net :: View topic - Changes in the Ginans
FAQFAQ   SearchSearch   MemberlistMemberlist   UsergroupsUsergroups  ProfileProfile   
Login to check your private messagesLogin to check your private messages

Changes in the Ginans
Goto page Previous  1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7  Next
 
Post new topic   Reply to topic    www.ismaili.net Forum Index -> Ginans
View previous topic :: View next topic  
Author Message
ZAly



Joined: 12 Jul 2006
Posts: 14

PostPosted: Sun Oct 08, 2006 11:03 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

YAM

Can someone from Karachi please give me the email address of Alwaez Kamaluddin or Alwaeza Kamaluddin.

I am making a writeup on Momin Chetamani and would like to discuss and understand. I think Momin Chetamani beautifully describes the concept of Imamat, Creation, Evolution, basically all that our religion is based up.

Would be grateful if someone can help me with this and also get me the email address.
Back to top
View users profile Send private message
Aamir19



Joined: 20 Oct 2006
Posts: 10

PostPosted: Sun Nov 12, 2006 10:36 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

<P>YAM, <BR>Hi, how are you, I read your message regarding e-mail address of Al-waz Kamalludin.<BR>you contact "Tariqa &amp; Religious Education Board Karachi" they are help you.<BR><BR>thanks &amp; regards</P>
Back to top
View users profile Send private message
dchandani



Joined: 03 Aug 2006
Posts: 26

PostPosted: Wed Feb 14, 2007 8:12 am    Post subject: ginans /email adress for alvaez Reply with quote

alvaez Kamaludin's email adress is
zarkamal@cyber.net.pk
i hope this helps
Back to top
View users profile Send private message
star_munir



Joined: 21 Apr 2003
Posts: 1665

PostPosted: Mon Apr 30, 2007 4:46 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

If you would like, then you may also discuss the verses here.
Back to top
View users profile Send private message Visit posters website
samirnoorali



Joined: 26 Dec 2008
Posts: 61

PostPosted: Wed Jun 24, 2009 10:27 pm    Post subject: Uniting to Defend the Pir and Ginans Reply with quote

Dear Members:

I was very happy to see so many individuals who defended the Pirs and the Ginans from people who wish to change them. I am particularly happy to see that we will stand up for the Pir and maintain that his words are to be left alone in its original form. The importance of that is already given by numerous examples which you have all presented.

As times change the literature fades away, but you have all proven that even though times have changed that doesnít mean we have a right to change words that donít belong to us. If we changed the words of the Quran from:

Oh you who believe, obey Allah, and obey the Prophet, and the holders of authority from amongst you.

To

Oh you who believe, obey Allah, and obey the Prophet, and the Imams who are the people of the house.

Imagine then how Muslims from other sects would react? Imagine printing it and saying that this is far closer to our interpretation of the faith. Even though we would consider that closer to what we interpret the line to be, no orthodox Muslim would agree. Therefore reverse the situation and wonder how a follower of the Pir would feel if one changed the words of the ginans? They would feel exactly the same way.

Well then as many of you put it, the Pir is the successor of the Prophet, and so we are respecting him. At present, Karim is the Pir for all Ismailis.

Keep united in this matter because it is very important for the future. Never bend to those people who say that the ginans were conversion tools, that they contain Hindu elements, because for those of you who are well versed in ginans you will attest that the Pirs introduced concepts that are unique from Islam and Hinduism. No Hindu follows the manifestations of Aaron, Simon Peter, and Abu Talib. Nor do Sunnis accept Ali Allah. We see the Pirís interpretation of history as far more Islamic than what other sects interpret it to be. It is not that other schools of thought are right and we are catching up, but rather we are right and they are catching up.

So therefore these teaching conform to a unique blend of the pre-Islamic presence of Allah and the Islamic presence of Allah. In other words, the Pir has looked over history of many cultures and brought to us the linkages. These linkages bind Judaism, Christianity, and Islam.

And Iím happy to see individuals in this forum stand up and say we are not afraid. We are not afraid of other people and their opinions. We are completely confident in our own teachings and that we can teach others rather than they teach us.

I think that diversity in our jamat is our greatest strength. Ismailis from Afghanistan, Syria, India, Pakistan, United States, Canada, UK, Asia, and elsewhere may speak different languages, come with different traditions, but at the end of the day we should love each other as equals under one faith. We should be open to one another and share our traditions and learn each otherís ways.

Now sometimes there is confusion between missionaries and Pirs. Look at the list of Pirs:

1. Pir Mohammad (the Prophet Mohammad)
2. Pir Hasan (grandson to the Prophet Mohammad)
3. Pir Kasam Shah
4. Pir Jafar Shah
5. Pir Zain ul Abadin
6. Pir Amir Ahmad
7. Pir Noordin (Satgur Noor)
8. Pir Indra Imammadin
9. Pir Mohammad Mansur
10. Pir Galabdin
11. Pir Abdul Majid
12. Pir Mustansirbillah
13. Pir Ahmad Hadi
14. Pir Hasham Shah
15. Pir Mohammad Shah
16. Pir Mahmud Shah
17. Pir Mohobdin
18. Pir Khalaqdin
19. Pir Abdul Mominin
20. Pir Islamdin
21. Pir Salehdin
22. Pir Salahdin
23. Pir Shamsdin
24. Pir Nasirdin
25. Pir Shahabudin
26. Pir Sadardin
27. Pir Hasan Kabirdin
28. Pir Tajdin
29. Pir Mustansirbillah (Pir Pandiyate Jawanmardi)
30. Pir Haidar Ali
31. Pir Aladdin
32. Pir Kasam Shah
33. Pir Nasir Mohammad
34. Pir Baba Aga Hasam Shah
35. Pir Mohammad Zaman
36. Pir Aga Aziz
37. Pir Mehrab Beg
38. Pir Ali Akbar Beg
39. Pir Aga Ali Asgar Beg
40. Pir Mirza Shah Hasan Ali
41. Pir Mirza Shah Kasam Ali
42. Pir Aga Shah Abul Hasan Ali
43. Pir Mirza Mohammad Bakir
44. Pir Sarkar Mata Salamat
45. Pir Aga Shah Hasan Ali
46. Pir Aga Shah Ali Shah Datar
47. Pir Aga Shah Khalillah
48. Pir Abul Hasan Shah
49. Pir Sultan Mohammad Shah
50. Pir Karim


This lineage shows that the current Pir is present in this world. So when we unite together we are not only considering Karim as Imam, but also as a Pir. This is very important. Without this understanding many individuals will feel it is perfectly fine to change the words of the ginans. But having seen your strong faith in the Pir on this forum, I am certain that you will continue to protect that which is dear to our history.

Let me once again say that Pirs are not the exclusive property of Khojas. That is not the case. Pirs are for every Ismaili, whether they be Afghani, Syrian, Arab, Asian, or European, etc.

There can be many missionaries in the world, but the Pir is unique. He is the manifestation of the Prophet. Remember the teachings of our forefathers. They taught us that Ali, Mohammad, and Allah are part of the same Noor. The same essence.

Keep up the good work, because this website, ismaili.net, had done a wonderful job preserving khojki text. It is unique, as no other website has come close over the years to provide us with such valuable information.
Back to top
View users profile Send private message Send email
KhojaIsmaili



Joined: 24 Jun 2009
Posts: 22

PostPosted: Thu Jun 25, 2009 5:31 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

samirnoorali, I don't see Pir Sabzaali on the list. Was he not our Pir? Please clarify.
Back to top
View users profile Send private message
kmaherali



Joined: 27 Mar 2003
Posts: 15378

PostPosted: Thu Jun 25, 2009 6:03 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

KhojaIsmaili wrote:
samirnoorali, I don't see Pir Sabzaali on the list. Was he not our Pir? Please clarify.
There has been discussion on the status of Pir Subzali at:

Doctrines --> Pir and Prophet

http://www.ismaili.net/html/modules.php?op=modload&name=phpBB2&file=viewtopic&t=651&start=0
Back to top
View users profile Send private message
agakhani



Joined: 07 May 2008
Posts: 2061
Location: TEXAS. U.S.A.

PostPosted: Fri Jun 26, 2009 6:03 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

KhojaIsmaili wrote:
samirnoorali, I don't see Pir Sabzaali on the list. Was he not our Pir? Please clarify.

Samir,
There is a link about Pir Sabzaali in Ismaili.net, but let me tell you this in short here that pirs should be from "AHLE-BAIT"(Prophet Mohammed and Hazarat Ali') family and the title of pir should be granted from the Imam, for a example Pir Imamdin was not official pir but he was SAYED who wrote a great,valubale ginan " NAKALANKI GITA' and many more ginans.
Pir Sabzaali and pir Ismail Gangaji received pirs title after their death.
Nasir Khusaru and other great Ismaili dai were not from Ahle-Bait so we can not consider them as our Ismaili pirs.
Back to top
View users profile Send private message Send email
ShamsB



Joined: 04 Aug 2004
Posts: 1107

PostPosted: Fri Jun 26, 2009 7:36 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

agakhani wrote:
KhojaIsmaili wrote:
samirnoorali, I don't see Pir Sabzaali on the list. Was he not our Pir? Please clarify.

Samir,
There is a link about Pir Sabzaali in Ismaili.net, but let me tell you this in short here that pirs should be from "AHLE-BAIT"(Prophet Mohammed and Hazarat Ali') family and the title of pir should be granted from the Imam, for a example Pir Imamdin was not official pir but he was SAYED who wrote a great,valubale ginan " NAKALANKI GITA' and many more ginans.
Pir Sabzaali and pir Ismail Gangaji received pirs title after their death.
Nasir Khusaru and other great Ismaili dai were not from Ahle-Bait so we can not consider them as our Ismaili pirs.



It becomes easier if we use the arabic terms - Imam Mustawada for Pirs that are from Ahle Bayt and Pirs for titular pirs.
Imam Mustawadas (Pir Hasan, Pir Shams, Pir Satgur Noor etc) - who are living pirs - can only be from Ahle Bayt. Posthumous or Titular Pirs - are not Imam Mustawada.

Shams
Back to top
View users profile Send private message
TheMaw



Joined: 14 Feb 2009
Posts: 106

PostPosted: Sat Jun 27, 2009 6:57 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

ShamsB wrote:
It becomes easier if we use the arabic terms - Imam Mustawada for Pirs that are from Ahle Bayt and Pirs for titular pirs.
Mustawda "one who is entrusted with something" refers to those who are accorded the rank of imam but cannot pass it on to their decendants. This is why Hassan was al-Imam al-Mustawda and Hussayn was al-Imam al-Mustaqar (in whom the Imamate is resident, rather than entrusted).

Pir is used by Khojas for a Mustawda; Mustaqar is Shah or Hujjat ("proof").


Last edited by TheMaw on Sat Jun 27, 2009 7:27 pm, edited 1 time in total
Back to top
View users profile Send private message
ShamsB



Joined: 04 Aug 2004
Posts: 1107

PostPosted: Sat Jun 27, 2009 9:47 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

[quote="TheMaw"][quote="ShamsB"]
agakhani wrote:
KhojaIsmaili wrote:
samirnoorali, It becomes easier if we use the arabic terms - Imam Mustawada for Pirs that are from Ahle Bayt and Pirs for titular pirs.
Mustawda "one who is entrusted with something" refers to those who are accorded the rank of imam but cannot pass it on to their decendants. This is why Hassan was al-Imam al-Mustawda and Hussayn was al-Imam al-Mustaqar (in whom the Imamate is resident, rather than entrusted).

Pir is used by Khojas for a Mustawda; Mustaqar is Shah or Hujjat ("proof").



Thank you..hopefully this helps clear the air between the Khojas and the rest of Ismailies when it comes to Nasir Khusraw and Pir Sadardeen and Pir Shams etc.

Shams
Back to top
View users profile Send private message
TheMaw



Joined: 14 Feb 2009
Posts: 106

PostPosted: Sat Jun 27, 2009 7:40 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

ShamsB wrote:
Thank you..hopefully this helps clear the air between the Khojas and the rest of Ismailies when it comes to Nasir Khusraw and Pir Sadardeen and Pir Shams etc.
I actually don't know what the statuses of Pir Sadruddin and Shams were. Pir is the Persian word that is the same as "shaykh" in Arabic: it means "Old Man", but respectfully. Nasir Khusraw, for example, was a "pir" but his actual rank in the Ismaili da3wah was first Missionary and then Chief Missionary to Khurasan. He was never equal to Husayn...

In the case of Pir Sadruddin and Pir Shams, I believe they were also high-ranking Missionary (da'i) but not Imam. Shams was sent - I believe by Imam Qasimshah - as a Missionary and so was Sadruddin.

This is no disrespect to any of the above figures. They were crucial and brilliant - Nizari saints, you could say. But they weren't Imams: here PIR means "Elder", not "Imam". Imams are members of the Ahl al-Bayt of rank, and most of them are Mustaqar. The names of most Mustawda Imams have not been recorded in our du'a, for example, and there are many who are only known through scholarship from the Middle Ages: siblings of the Mustaqar, usually.
Back to top
View users profile Send private message
ShamsB



Joined: 04 Aug 2004
Posts: 1107

PostPosted: Sun Jun 28, 2009 4:07 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

TheMaw wrote:
ShamsB wrote:
Thank you..hopefully this helps clear the air between the Khojas and the rest of Ismailies when it comes to Nasir Khusraw and Pir Sadardeen and Pir Shams etc.
I actually don't know what the statuses of Pir Sadruddin and Shams were. Pir is the Persian word that is the same as "shaykh" in Arabic: it means "Old Man", but respectfully. Nasir Khusraw, for example, was a "pir" but his actual rank in the Ismaili da3wah was first Missionary and then Chief Missionary to Khurasan. He was never equal to Husayn...

In the case of Pir Sadruddin and Pir Shams, I believe they were also high-ranking Missionary (da'i) but not Imam. Shams was sent - I believe by Imam Qasimshah - as a Missionary and so was Sadruddin.

This is no disrespect to any of the above figures. They were crucial and brilliant - Nizari saints, you could say. But they weren't Imams: here PIR means "Elder", not "Imam". Imams are members of the Ahl al-Bayt of rank, and most of them are Mustaqar. The names of most Mustawda Imams have not been recorded in our du'a, for example, and there are many who are only known through scholarship from the Middle Ages: siblings of the Mustaqar, usually.


Actually Pir Shams and his great(correct me here Kmaherali) grandson Pir Sadardeen and his sons Pir Hasan Kabirdeen and Pir Tajdin were Imam Mustawada - as per our old dua and the farmans of the Imams. I believe someone has published a list of all 50 pirs upto Hazar Imam in the previous postings. And all of them were Ahle Bayt - they did descend from the Holy Prophet being lineal offspring of Imam Jafar As Sadiq.
If you take a look at all the 50 pirs - with the exception of Pir Pandiyat E Jawan Mardi - (which was the book of Farmans oF Imam Mustan SirBillah II) - all the other 49 pirs were Ahle Bayt - even Pir Bibi Sarkar Maryam Khatun - the wife of Imam Khalliulah II, and the mother of Imam Aga Hassanali Shah was Ahle Bayt being the daughter of Imam Khallulah's paternal uncle.
In his will Imam Sultan Mohammed Shah appointed Shah Karim as the Imam and the Pir.
My statement just alluded to saying maybe if we start using the older arabic terminology for these figures we can maybe reduce the confusion and friction amongst the different traditions. Pir means 2 different things to different groups of folks and it is becoming a source of consternation.

Shams
Back to top
View users profile Send private message
kmaherali



Joined: 27 Mar 2003
Posts: 15378

PostPosted: Sun Jun 28, 2009 5:05 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

TheMaw wrote:
In the case of Pir Sadruddin and Pir Shams, I believe they were also high-ranking Missionary (da'i) but not Imam. Shams was sent - I believe by Imam Qasimshah - as a Missionary and so was Sadruddin.

This is no disrespect to any of the above figures. They were crucial and brilliant - Nizari saints, you could say. But they weren't Imams: here PIR means "Elder", not "Imam". Imams are members of the Ahl al-Bayt of rank, and most of them are Mustaqar. The names of most Mustawda Imams have not been recorded in our du'a, for example, and there are many who are only known through scholarship from the Middle Ages: siblings of the Mustaqar, usually.


The rank of the appointed Pir is equivalent to that of Prophet Muhammad. All the Pirs are Ahl al-Bayt (descendants of the Prophet). They are the bearers of the Noor just as the Prophet. In our previous Du'a, we also recited the names of our Pirs. MHI at present is both the Imam and the Pir.

More on this at:

Doctrines --> Pir and Prophet

http://www.ismaili.net/html/modules.php?op=modload&name=phpBB2&file=viewtopic&t=651&start=0
Back to top
View users profile Send private message
agakhani



Joined: 07 May 2008
Posts: 2061
Location: TEXAS. U.S.A.

PostPosted: Sun Jun 28, 2009 5:19 am    Post subject: let make it clear. Reply with quote

It seems to me, this topic getting in confusion aproach . below are some clerification from me:-
1, Pir and Imam are two different authorities.
2, Both should be from AHLE-BAIT family.
3, Both should be present on earth all the time.
4, Pirs always appointed by Imam of the time.
5, There were some pirs in past who were not granted "PIRATAN" from
Imam of their time but their Ginans are still spoken in Jamat Khanas.
These type pirs usally call SYED.
6, During the time of Imam Mustansiribillah and after Pir Tajdin a book
name "PANDIYATE JAWAMARDI" written by Imam Mustansiribillah was
Ismaili pir.
7, PIR is persian word and it means, old respectable/reputable person.
8. There is no 'Pir' word in Arabic language, because there is no " P" letter
in Arabic alphabet. You can use Al-Mustwad instead of Pir.
9, In Khoja tradition they believe that pir is apeareance from Lord
Brahma, and Imam's apeareace is from Lord Vishnu. There are too
many Ginans on this topic in Gujarati, Khojki and other Indo languages
for above reference.
10,Pir Sabzali and Mukhi Ismail Gangji received pir title after their death.
but they both were not form AHLE-Bait family, they received Pir title
because of their excellent Khidmat of Jamat and Imam.
11, There are big differences between QASIDA and GINANS.Ginans cover
almost all the fields and are loded with RUHANIAYAT, Qasida is Praise
of Allah.
12, There is a book in gujarati language which is now available ''PIR
PADHARYA AAPNE DWAR" written by wellknown missionary ALIBHAI
NANJI. In this book you can find history of our 50 pirs, list of the
ginans written by each pirs, their year of birth death. MOZIZA e.t.c. I
would recommend every one who know Gujarati, must have this book
in their library.
Back to top
View users profile Send private message Send email
No_problem



Joined: 17 Jun 2008
Posts: 40

PostPosted: Sun Jun 28, 2009 3:10 pm    Post subject: Re: let make it clear. Reply with quote

agakhani wrote:
It seems to me, this topic getting in confusion aproach . below are some clerification from me:-
1, Pir and Imam are two different authorities.
2, Both should be from AHLE-BAIT family.
3, Both should be present on earth all the time.
4, Pirs always appointed by Imam of the time.
5, There were some pirs in past who were not granted "PIRATAN" from
Imam of their time but their Ginans are still spoken in Jamat Khanas.
These type pirs usally call SYED.
6, During the time of Imam Mustansiribillah and after Pir Tajdin a book
name "PANDIYATE JAWAMARDI" written by Imam Mustansiribillah was
Ismaili pir.
7, PIR is persian word and it means, old respectable/reputable person.
8. There is no 'Pir' word in Arabic language, because there is no " P" letter
in Arabic alphabet. You can use Al-Mustwad instead of Pir.
9, In Khoja tradition they believe that pir is apeareance from Lord
Brahma, and Imam's apeareace is from Lord Vishnu. There are too
many Ginans on this topic in Gujarati, Khojki and other Indo languages
for above reference.
10,Pir Sabzali and Mukhi Ismail Gangji received pir title after their death.
but they both were not form AHLE-Bait family, they received Pir title
because of their excellent Khidmat of Jamat and Imam.
11, There are big differences between QASIDA and GINANS.Ginans cover
almost all the fields and are loded with RUHANIAYAT, Qasida is Praise
of Allah.
12, There is a book in gujarati language which is now available ''PIR
PADHARYA AAPNE DWAR" written by wellknown missionary ALIBHAI
NANJI. In this book you can find history of our 50 pirs, list of the
ginans written by each pirs, their year of birth death. MOZIZA e.t.c. I
would recommend every one who know Gujarati, must have this book
in their library.


I think some of the points in the above post are not accurate.

It is indeed, Pir and Imam are 2 different concepts and the fundamental and central principle in Ismaili Tariqah is the continuous presence of the Imam of the time.

In Arabic the word Pir is not used, however, the reason is not because of the non-existence of the letter "P"! Actually in Arabic the letter "B" is used for both "B" and "P" so the non-existence of "P" is not a problem. The actual reason is because there were no people called Pirs in Arabic Ismaili tradition however there were Dais, Hujjas, Imam Mustawdah, etc.

Imam Mustawdah means a person who is not Imam of the time but a person who may be known to some people as the Imam so that to protect the real Imam at times when the security of the Imam was not guaranteed.

There were some Dais who played significant roles in Ismaili history and they are called in Arabic with titles such as Dais or Hujjas. For example, Qadi Numan, Kermani, Sijistani, Ibn Hawshab, Abu Abdullah Al-Shi'i, Hassan Sabbah, Rashid din Sinan, Nassir Khusro, Al-Haj Khudr, etc. They have done distinguished work in our history but they have not been known as Pirs in Arabic heritage.

Most of those Dais played roles similar to the Pirs of the Indian subcontinent. For example Ibn Hawshab converted large population in Yemen to the Ismaili faith, Abu Abdullah al-Shi'i did similar in North Africa, and Nassir Khusro in Central Asia, etc. Also most of them left works in Ismaili faith either in the form of Qasida or text books or both.

I notice from the list of 50 Pirs mentioned in a previous post that there were only 6 Pirs before Pir Satgur Noor which would means that a Pir was not present at all times, contrary to the Imam of the time who is ever present.

Also it is important to mention that the difference between Ginan and Qasida is not as you mentioned for Qasidas cover many topics and not only praise of Allah. The Qasidas focus on the love and praise of the Imam of the time as well as spirituality and some Arabic and Farsi Qasidas have been written by Imams or Imam's brother, etc. To my best knowledge Hazar Imam has not distinguished between Qasidas and Ginans.

Thank you.
Back to top
View users profile Send private message
ShamsB



Joined: 04 Aug 2004
Posts: 1107

PostPosted: Sun Jun 28, 2009 4:11 pm    Post subject: Re: let make it clear. Reply with quote

No_problem wrote:
agakhani wrote:
It seems to me, this topic getting in confusion aproach . below are some clerification from me:-
1, Pir and Imam are two different authorities.
2, Both should be from AHLE-BAIT family.
3, Both should be present on earth all the time.
4, Pirs always appointed by Imam of the time.
5, There were some pirs in past who were not granted "PIRATAN" from
Imam of their time but their Ginans are still spoken in Jamat Khanas.
These type pirs usally call SYED.
6, During the time of Imam Mustansiribillah and after Pir Tajdin a book
name "PANDIYATE JAWAMARDI" written by Imam Mustansiribillah was
Ismaili pir.
7, PIR is persian word and it means, old respectable/reputable person.
8. There is no 'Pir' word in Arabic language, because there is no " P" letter
in Arabic alphabet. You can use Al-Mustwad instead of Pir.
9, In Khoja tradition they believe that pir is apeareance from Lord
Brahma, and Imam's apeareace is from Lord Vishnu. There are too
many Ginans on this topic in Gujarati, Khojki and other Indo languages
for above reference.
10,Pir Sabzali and Mukhi Ismail Gangji received pir title after their death.
but they both were not form AHLE-Bait family, they received Pir title
because of their excellent Khidmat of Jamat and Imam.
11, There are big differences between QASIDA and GINANS.Ginans cover
almost all the fields and are loded with RUHANIAYAT, Qasida is Praise
of Allah.
12, There is a book in gujarati language which is now available ''PIR
PADHARYA AAPNE DWAR" written by wellknown missionary ALIBHAI
NANJI. In this book you can find history of our 50 pirs, list of the
ginans written by each pirs, their year of birth death. MOZIZA e.t.c. I
would recommend every one who know Gujarati, must have this book
in their library.


I think some of the points in the above post are not accurate.

It is indeed, Pir and Imam are 2 different concepts and the fundamental and central principle in Ismaili Tariqah is the continuous presence of the Imam of the time.

In Arabic the word Pir is not used, however, the reason is not because of the non-existence of the letter "P"! Actually in Arabic the letter "B" is used for both "B" and "P" so the non-existence of "P" is not a problem. The actual reason is because there were no people called Pirs in Arabic Ismaili tradition however there were Dais, Hujjas, Imam Mustawdah, etc.

Imam Mustawdah means a person who is not Imam of the time but a person who may be known to some people as the Imam so that to protect the real Imam at times when the security of the Imam was not guaranteed.

There were some Dais who played significant roles in Ismaili history and they are called in Arabic with titles such as Dais or Hujjas. For example, Qadi Numan, Kermani, Sijistani, Ibn Hawshab, Abu Abdullah Al-Shi'i, Hassan Sabbah, Rashid din Sinan, Nassir Khusro, Al-Haj Khudr, etc. They have done distinguished work in our history but they have not been known as Pirs in Arabic heritage.

Most of those Dais played roles similar to the Pirs of the Indian subcontinent. For example Ibn Hawshab converted large population in Yemen to the Ismaili faith, Abu Abdullah al-Shi'i did similar in North Africa, and Nassir Khusro in Central Asia, etc. Also most of them left works in Ismaili faith either in the form of Qasida or text books or both.

I notice from the list of 50 Pirs mentioned in a previous post that there were only 6 Pirs before Pir Satgur Noor which would means that a Pir was not present at all times, contrary to the Imam of the time who is ever present.

Also it is important to mention that the difference between Ginan and Qasida is not as you mentioned for Qasidas cover many topics and not only praise of Allah. The Qasidas focus on the love and praise of the Imam of the time as well as spirituality and some Arabic and Farsi Qasidas have been written by Imams or Imam's brother, etc. To my best knowledge Hazar Imam has not distinguished between Qasidas and Ginans.

Thank you.


Actually there is a list of 50 pirs - it has been posted on this topic - if you'd go back and read - you'd discover the names of all 50 pirs.

Shams
Back to top
View users profile Send private message
kmaherali



Joined: 27 Mar 2003
Posts: 15378

PostPosted: Sun Jun 28, 2009 4:19 pm    Post subject: Re: let make it clear. Reply with quote

No_problem wrote:


I notice from the list of 50 Pirs mentioned in a previous post that there were only 6 Pirs before Pir Satgur Noor which would means that a Pir was not present at all times, contrary to the Imam of the time who is ever present.



The Light of Piratan is always present. Sometimes it is combined in the Imam and at other times it expresses itself in a separate person. Pir Hasan Kabideen who is the bearer of the Light mentions about his existence in other Yugas in the verses of the Anant Akhado below.

Aashaajee Jug kartaa maanhe ek kalaa rachaayaa
tees maanhe ham-kun jaanno jee
beejaa jug maanhe Veejeshthann kaheeyen
sobee ham avtaar........................Haree anant..374

Oh Lord During the era of Kerta the Lord created a manifestation
I(Pir Hassan Kabirdin) was that manifestation (as Gur
Brahma)
In the Treta Jug the manifestation was called
Veejeshthann
even that was my manifestation
Haree You are eternal...

Aashaajee Jug Dwaapur maanhe Veedur-vyaas kaheeyen
sobee ham-kun jaanno jee
Kal-jug maanhe ham-hi jaanno
sohee Rasul naam........................Haree anant..375

Oh Lord In the Dwaapur Jug the name of the manifestation of Gur
Brahma was Veedur-vyaas
Even He was our form
In the Kal-jug we are the manifestation of Gur Brahma
and it is the same light of the Messenger(Prophet
Muhammed)
Haree You are eternal...

Veedur Vyaas composed the Gita.

In a verse of the Ginan Sab Gat Sami Maro Bharpur Betthaa Pir Sadardeen says:

ejee pahele dha(n)dhukaar maa(n)he nabee muhammed mustaphaa sohee guru ja(m)pudeep maa(n)he aayaa ek jeeyo..............20

O momins: In the beginning and in the void, Prophet Muhammed the Chosen was there. It is indeed the same Guide (Peer) who has come to the Indian Subcontinent.
Back to top
View users profile Send private message
agakhani



Joined: 07 May 2008
Posts: 2061
Location: TEXAS. U.S.A.

PostPosted: Mon Jun 29, 2009 3:17 am    Post subject: Re: let make it clear. Reply with quote

ShamsB wrote:
No_problem wrote:
agakhani wrote:
It seems to me, this topic getting in confusion aproach . below are some clerification from me:-
1, Pir and Imam are two different authorities.
2, Both should be from AHLE-BAIT family.
3, Both should be present on earth all the time.
4, Pirs always appointed by Imam of the time.
5, There were some pirs in past who were not granted "PIRATAN" from
Imam of their time but their Ginans are still spoken in Jamat Khanas.
These type pirs usally call SYED.
6, During the time of Imam Mustansiribillah and after Pir Tajdin a book
name "PANDIYATE JAWAMARDI" written by Imam Mustansiribillah was
Ismaili pir.
7, PIR is persian word and it means, old respectable/reputable person.
8. There is no 'Pir' word in Arabic language, because there is no " P" letter
in Arabic alphabet. You can use Al-Mustwad instead of Pir.
9, In Khoja tradition they believe that pir is apeareance from Lord
Brahma, and Imam's apeareace is from Lord Vishnu. There are too
many Ginans on this topic in Gujarati, Khojki and other Indo languages
for above reference.
10,Pir Sabzali and Mukhi Ismail Gangji received pir title after their death.
but they both were not form AHLE-Bait family, they received Pir title
because of their excellent Khidmat of Jamat and Imam.
11, There are big differences between QASIDA and GINANS.Ginans cover
almost all the fields and are loded with RUHANIAYAT, Qasida is Praise
of Allah.
12, There is a book in gujarati language which is now available ''PIR
PADHARYA AAPNE DWAR" written by wellknown missionary ALIBHAI
NANJI. In this book you can find history of our 50 pirs, list of the
ginans written by each pirs, their year of birth death. MOZIZA e.t.c. I
would recommend every one who know Gujarati, must have this book
in their library.


I think some of the points in the above post are not accurate.

It is indeed, Pir and Imam are 2 different concepts and the fundamental and central principle in Ismaili Tariqah is the continuous presence of the Imam of the time.

In Arabic the word Pir is not used, however, the reason is not because of the non-existence of the letter "P"! Actually in Arabic the letter "B" is used for both "B" and "P" so the non-existence of "P" is not a problem. The actual reason is because there were no people called Pirs in Arabic Ismaili tradition however there were Dais, Hujjas, Imam Mustawdah, etc.

Imam Mustawdah means a person who is not Imam of the time but a person who may be known to some people as the Imam so that to protect the real Imam at times when the security of the Imam was not guaranteed.

There were some Dais who played significant roles in Ismaili history and they are called in Arabic with titles such as Dais or Hujjas. For example, Qadi Numan, Kermani, Sijistani, Ibn Hawshab, Abu Abdullah Al-Shi'i, Hassan Sabbah, Rashid din Sinan, Nassir Khusro, Al-Haj Khudr, etc. They have done distinguished work in our history but they have not been known as Pirs in Arabic heritage.

Most of those Dais played roles similar to the Pirs of the Indian subcontinent. For example Ibn Hawshab converted large population in Yemen to the Ismaili faith, Abu Abdullah al-Shi'i did similar in North Africa, and Nassir Khusro in Central Asia, etc. Also most of them left works in Ismaili faith either in the form of Qasida or text books or both.

I notice from the list of 50 Pirs mentioned in a previous post that there were only 6 Pirs before Pir Satgur Noor which would means that a Pir was not present at all times, contrary to the Imam of the time who is ever present.

Also it is important to mention that the difference between Ginan and Qasida is not as you mentioned for Qasidas cover many topics and not only praise of Allah. The Qasidas focus on the love and praise of the Imam of the time as well as spirituality and some Arabic and Farsi Qasidas have been written by Imams or Imam's brother, etc. To my best knowledge Hazar Imam has not distinguished between Qasidas and Ginans.

Thank you.


Actually there is a list of 50 pirs - it has been posted on this topic - if you'd go back and read - you'd discover the names of all 50 pirs.

Shams

NO_PROBLEM,
YOUR CORRECTIONS ARE WELL NOTED FROM MY SIDE.
The above clerification was taken from many books and waez it may be not accurate as you mention.
Back to top
View users profile Send private message Send email
No_problem



Joined: 17 Jun 2008
Posts: 40

PostPosted: Tue Jun 30, 2009 11:48 am    Post subject: Re: let make it clear. Reply with quote

ShamsB wrote:


Actually there is a list of 50 pirs - it has been posted on this topic - if you'd go back and read - you'd discover the names of all 50 pirs.

Shams


Yes this is the list I mentioned. The confusion comes from the fact that the list doesn't seem logical. For example, there is a period of some 700-800 years between the first and 6th Pirs (in the same period there were about 26 Imams) and also the list shows that 44 Pirs lived in the last 600-700 years (23 Imams lived in this period). So this list doesn't seem accurate.


kmaherali wrote:


The Light of Piratan is always present. Sometimes it is combined in the Imam and at other times it expresses itself in a separate person. Pir Hasan Kabideen who is the bearer of the Light mentions about his existence in other Yugas in the verses of the Anant Akhado below.

Aashaajee Jug kartaa maanhe ek kalaa rachaayaa
tees maanhe ham-kun jaanno jee
beejaa jug maanhe Veejeshthann kaheeyen
sobee ham avtaar........................Haree anant..374

Oh Lord During the era of Kerta the Lord created a manifestation
I(Pir Hassan Kabirdin) was that manifestation (as Gur
Brahma)
In the Treta Jug the manifestation was called
Veejeshthann
even that was my manifestation
Haree You are eternal...

Aashaajee Jug Dwaapur maanhe Veedur-vyaas kaheeyen
sobee ham-kun jaanno jee
Kal-jug maanhe ham-hi jaanno
sohee Rasul naam........................Haree anant..375

Oh Lord In the Dwaapur Jug the name of the manifestation of Gur
Brahma was Veedur-vyaas
Even He was our form
In the Kal-jug we are the manifestation of Gur Brahma
and it is the same light of the Messenger(Prophet
Muhammed)
Haree You are eternal...

Veedur Vyaas composed the Gita.

In a verse of the Ginan Sab Gat Sami Maro Bharpur Betthaa Pir Sadardeen says:

ejee pahele dha(n)dhukaar maa(n)he nabee muhammed mustaphaa sohee guru ja(m)pudeep maa(n)he aayaa ek jeeyo..............20

O momins: In the beginning and in the void, Prophet Muhammed the Chosen was there. It is indeed the same Guide (Peer) who has come to the Indian Subcontinent.


I guess Pir Hasan Kabideen meant existence of the position of Pir rather than himself (like we say all Imams are same Noor).

The translation of the first Ginan doesn't seem to be accurate. For example Gur Brahma is not mentioned in the Ginan.

The translation of the Ginan of Pir Sadardin, doesn't seem to be accurate as the Indian Subcontinent is not mentioned and he sound to have meant the Prophet rather than the Pir. Please forgive my poor Gujarati if my comments are wrong.

Iím not trying to argue but trying to understand the concept. Iíve the utmost respect and love for the Pirs and in particular Iím fascinated by story and Ginans of Pir Sadardin who is such a great personality in our history.

Thank you.
Back to top
View users profile Send private message
ShamsB



Joined: 04 Aug 2004
Posts: 1107

PostPosted: Tue Jun 30, 2009 12:29 pm    Post subject: Re: let make it clear. Reply with quote

No_problem wrote:
ShamsB wrote:


Actually there is a list of 50 pirs - it has been posted on this topic - if you'd go back and read - you'd discover the names of all 50 pirs.

Shams


Yes this is the list I mentioned. The confusion comes from the fact that the list doesn't seem logical. For example, there is a period of some 700-800 years between the first and 6th Pirs (in the same period there were about 26 Imams) and also the list shows that 44 Pirs lived in the last 600-700 years (23 Imams lived in this period). So this list doesn't seem accurate.


kmaherali wrote:


The Light of Piratan is always present. Sometimes it is combined in the Imam and at other times it expresses itself in a separate person. Pir Hasan Kabideen who is the bearer of the Light mentions about his existence in other Yugas in the verses of the Anant Akhado below.

Aashaajee Jug kartaa maanhe ek kalaa rachaayaa
tees maanhe ham-kun jaanno jee
beejaa jug maanhe Veejeshthann kaheeyen
sobee ham avtaar........................Haree anant..374

Oh Lord During the era of Kerta the Lord created a manifestation
I(Pir Hassan Kabirdin) was that manifestation (as Gur
Brahma)
In the Treta Jug the manifestation was called
Veejeshthann
even that was my manifestation
Haree You are eternal...

Aashaajee Jug Dwaapur maanhe Veedur-vyaas kaheeyen
sobee ham-kun jaanno jee
Kal-jug maanhe ham-hi jaanno
sohee Rasul naam........................Haree anant..375

Oh Lord In the Dwaapur Jug the name of the manifestation of Gur
Brahma was Veedur-vyaas
Even He was our form
In the Kal-jug we are the manifestation of Gur Brahma
and it is the same light of the Messenger(Prophet
Muhammed)
Haree You are eternal...

Veedur Vyaas composed the Gita.

In a verse of the Ginan Sab Gat Sami Maro Bharpur Betthaa Pir Sadardeen says:

ejee pahele dha(n)dhukaar maa(n)he nabee muhammed mustaphaa sohee guru ja(m)pudeep maa(n)he aayaa ek jeeyo..............20

O momins: In the beginning and in the void, Prophet Muhammed the Chosen was there. It is indeed the same Guide (Peer) who has come to the Indian Subcontinent.


I guess Pir Hasan Kabideen meant existence of the position of Pir rather than himself (like we say all Imams are same Noor).

The translation of the first Ginan doesn't seem to be accurate. For example Gur Brahma is not mentioned in the Ginan.

The translation of the Ginan of Pir Sadardin, doesn't seem to be accurate as the Indian Subcontinent is not mentioned and he sound to have meant the Prophet rather than the Pir. Please forgive my poor Gujarati if my comments are wrong.

Iím not trying to argue but trying to understand the concept. Iíve the utmost respect and love for the Pirs and in particular Iím fascinated by story and Ginans of Pir Sadardin who is such a great personality in our history.

Thank you.


So in those periods - the Imams played the role of the Shah and Pir - you might want to read Ismaili History by AbuAli or get your hands on a copy of the old dua -that has a comprehensive list of the pirs.

The original words in the ginans did have Guru Brahma - i'd recommend rereading all the posts on this topic and you'll get answers to your questions.

Shams
Back to top
View users profile Send private message
star_munir



Joined: 21 Apr 2003
Posts: 1665

PostPosted: Tue Jan 24, 2012 4:02 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

What is the year of publication of book ''PIR
PADHARYA AAPNE DWAR" ? Is there detailed history of all Pirs in this book?
Back to top
View users profile Send private message Visit posters website
agakhani



Joined: 07 May 2008
Posts: 2061
Location: TEXAS. U.S.A.

PostPosted: Wed Jan 25, 2012 4:16 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
What is the year of publication of book ''PIR
PADHARYA AAPNE DWAR" ? Is there detailed history of all Pirs in this book?


Yes, it contain detail history of our 50 pirs including current pir Shah Karim and also INDRA IMAMDIN ( as you mention in one of your recent post) not only this but it has also the history other Syeds and Sadats who were not our appointed pirs but who has composed ginans like Syed ImamShah,Syed Noor Mohd Shah, Syed Gulmali Shah, Imam Begum and many more and that is why this book is so important.
I have latest version called 'Golden Jubilee edition' of PIR PADHARYA AAPNE DWAR 1-2 it was published in year 2007 but original and first publication year of this book was 1986.

FYI:- This book ( may be older version) also available in Garden Jamat Khana library borrow from there if you do not want to purchase it because it is a old book and I think it may be not available in Pakistan. Here in USA it is still available, please let me know if you interested to purchase
( I am not a book seller) it is a great book it has already many editions and every family should have it.


Last edited by agakhani on Fri Jan 27, 2012 3:47 am, edited 1 time in total
Back to top
View users profile Send private message Send email
star_munir



Joined: 21 Apr 2003
Posts: 1665

PostPosted: Wed Jan 25, 2012 3:44 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Thanks a lot for information. I will try to look for the book. If it will not be available than, I will email you and let you know.
Back to top
View users profile Send private message Visit posters website
nuseri



Joined: 12 Jul 2012
Posts: 1379

PostPosted: Tue Sep 11, 2012 1:10 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

In 1891 Farman of Zanjbar Imam said not to recite about hinduism in Ginans, it was for that time when you were hindus Now leave 9 Avtars and talk about Ali...
I wish to read/know proper extract of Imam SMS above farman,only then I may form my opinion on this subject.Please anyone can give few line extract of this Farman?
Back to top
View users profile Send private message
Admin



Joined: 06 Jan 2003
Posts: 4730

PostPosted: Tue Sep 11, 2012 7:43 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

The Farman said leave the 9 Avtars and concentrate on the 10th Avatar.

Basically the Farman says the same things that Pirs said in all their Ginans and Grants.

This is why Mowlana Sultan Muhammad Shah said that Farmans and Ginans are the same and also that if we had studied properly the Ginans he would not have needed to make these Farmans.
Back to top
View users profile Send private message Visit posters website
kmaherali



Joined: 27 Mar 2003
Posts: 15378

PostPosted: Tue Sep 11, 2012 11:39 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

nuseri wrote:
In 1891 Farman of Zanjbar Imam said not to recite about hinduism in Ginans, it was for that time when you were hindus Now leave 9 Avtars and talk about Ali...
I wish to read/know proper extract of Imam SMS above farman,only then I may form my opinion on this subject.Please anyone can give few line extract of this Farman?

"It is not appropriate that you should discuss matters pertaining to Hinduism as an aspect of knowledge. When you were Hindus, Pir Sadardin showed you the way. That time has now gone.

Now you should praise Mowla and his progeny. Read about the praises of HazarImam. Now abandon 9 manifestations ( nav avtar). Read about the praises of the 10th manifestation which is comprised of our forefathers. Read the Ginans wherein the 10th manifestation is explained."
Back to top
View users profile Send private message
nuseri



Joined: 12 Jul 2012
Posts: 1379

PostPosted: Wed Sep 12, 2012 12:38 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

To Admin:
Devotional literature is not same as Imam's Farman.

In regards to Hazar Imam's guidance of 1961 n later on Ginans and Qasidas.

ISHQ GINAN PEE.MAAN PIRO PAR
SHAYAD SHAQUE YA NARAZGI ALI AUR USKE ASABO PAR.
YEH SHAYAD MOMIN KI DHARMIK BHAVNA HO SAKTI HAI
USKA IMAAN NAHI?
IMAAN AISA RAKHO 'SIRF ALI ALI AUR EK HOJA ALI ALI'
HUKAM ALI KA HO AUR HAMARA JAWAB HO AMEEN.

As for Imam SMS Farman of 1898:

DEVI DEVTA GUFA PARVAT AUR PECHLE NAV AVAATAR
KE CHAKKER MEE, SAMBHALO KE KAHI AAP KI ATMA LAKH CHORIYASI
CHAKKER ME NAA AAJA WEH.
BANDH KARO YE BANIYE KI DUKAN AUR
KHOL DO ALI ALI SUPER MARKET.OFFLINE YA ONLINE.

Taking 360 different names of God is like asking the moon
for sunlight and taking ALI's name is like asking the sun for
sunlight.

ALI KO PYAAR KARO.ALI KO KHUSH KARO.
KABHI BHI ALI KO NARAZ MUT KARO
Back to top
View users profile Send private message
agakhani



Joined: 07 May 2008
Posts: 2061
Location: TEXAS. U.S.A.

PostPosted: Wed Sep 12, 2012 3:58 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

If I am not forgetting that Sultan Mohammad Shah made one farman on
DAS AVATAR; 10 INCARNATIONS (not exact texts of farman as SMS made but it was some like this):- every one should know about 10 incarnations and instructed to learn it as Islamic principals
in this farman Mowla insisted us to to know more about 10 incarnations if it has some thing wrong to know about Das avatar then he would not have made this farman'
Imam Hakim once declared himself in front ofcrowd that he is 10 incarnation!! where no Hindus were present in that crowd.

In my opinion it is nothing wrong to know more about 9 incarnations specially for those readers who have interest to learn more about different religions then they must need to read and know about 10 incarnations AFTER ALL INCARNATION IS A THEORY OF EVOLUTION.
FYI:- Sultan Mohammed Shah once declared him self as a 'Krishna' in Mathura and told that I had played RAAS - GARBAS many times with Gopis in this place
that proves a lot i.e.that incarnations were true and real.


Last edited by agakhani on Fri Sep 14, 2012 5:03 am, edited 2 times in total
Back to top
View users profile Send private message Send email
star_munir



Joined: 21 Apr 2003
Posts: 1665

PostPosted: Wed Sep 12, 2012 4:30 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

nuseri wrote:
To Admin:
Devotional literature is not same as Imam's Farman.

In regards to Hazar Imam's guidance of 1961 n later on Ginans and Qasidas.

ISHQ GINAN PEE.MAAN PIRO PAR
SHAYAD SHAQUE YA NARAZGI ALI AUR USKE ASABO PAR.
YEH SHAYAD MOMIN KI DHARMIK BHAVNA HO SAKTI HAI
USKA IMAAN NAHI?
IMAAN AISA RAKHO 'SIRF ALI ALI AUR EK HOJA ALI ALI'
HUKAM ALI KA HO AUR HAMARA JAWAB HO AMEEN.

As for Imam SMS Farman of 1898:

DEVI DEVTA GUFA PARVAT AUR PECHLE NAV AVAATAR
KE CHAKKER MEE, SAMBHALO KE KAHI AAP KI ATMA LAKH CHORIYASI
CHAKKER ME NAA AAJA WEH.
BANDH KARO YE BANIYE KI DUKAN AUR
KHOL DO ALI ALI SUPER MARKET.OFFLINE YA ONLINE.

Taking 360 different names of God is like asking the moon
for sunlight and taking ALI's name is like asking the sun for
sunlight.

ALI KO PYAAR KARO.ALI KO KHUSH KARO.
KABHI BHI ALI KO NARAZ MUT KARO


Farmans are like Ginans, full of wisdom and divine knowledge. Secondly, Hindus do not worship 360 gods.

I think few lines of Farman quoted, can not help to develop understanding on this topic. You will need to read this complete Farman and see das avtar is not the only thing quoted by Imam in that particular farman, there were different other aspects mentioned by Him. Read that to understand the context.
Back to top
View users profile Send private message Visit posters website
Display posts from previous:   
Post new topic   Reply to topic    www.ismaili.net Forum Index -> Ginans All times are GMT - 5 Hours
Goto page Previous  1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7  Next
Page 2 of 7

 
Jump to:  
You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum
You cannot vote in polls in this forum


Powered by phpBB 2.0.1 © 2001, 2002 phpBB Group




Fatal error: Call to a member function Execute() on a non-object in /home/heritage/web/webdocs/html/includes/pnSession.php on line 400